To date, the Leafs have lost:

- Ron Hainsey: too old
- Calle Rosen: didn't play on the team last year
- Tyler Ennis: this was always the plan - he was to play one year for the Leafs at minimum. He can be replaced easily
- Igor Ozhiganov: so bad he is going back to the KHL
- Patrick Marleau: too old
- Nazim Kadri: a guy you keep stating has "character" - and conveniently forget has been thrown out of the last two playoffs
- Jake Gardiner: a polarizing figure, to be sure. But some are not sad to see him go.

Doesn't really sound like "gutting" to me. Sounds like they are keeping their core players, and shuffling around guys that don't really have an impact.

You want to talk gutting?

You may want to look at Ottawa's roster.
- Atomic Wedgie

Ottawa's issues are to do more with the owner than anything else.

I agree with you that Toronto isn't gutting the roster, but to be fair I don't see where the improvements are coming from especially if Marner holds out into the season. Based on what Aho's offer sheet is, how can anyone say this guy deserves less than 10.5 mill? Based on production isn't he a better producer than breadman?

Yes, you are right the response is reasonable and if you give Dubas the benefit of a rookie year, perhaps I am being too hard on him.

Nevertheless, there is growing apprehension that the Leafs have topped out without ever having achieved any material post season success. Perhaps they moved too fast in wanting to achieve post season success. How does a team get themselves into a CAP nightmare without ever having won a playoff round?
- spatso

Again, the cap issue is not a nightmare. It was well known that they would be tight to the cap this year since Marner and Matthews entered the league. They are still going to be an extremely competitive team and they'll be giving themselves a chance every year for the foreseeable future.

Teams that have a lot of talent will always be tight to the cap.

Again, the cap issue is not a nightmare. It was well known that they would be tight to the cap this year since Marner and Matthews entered the league. They are still going to be an extremely competitive team and they'll be giving themselves a chance every year for the foreseeable future.

Teams that have a lot of talent will always be tight to the cap.
- lonnyBohonos

you’ve only been on here for 2 years so what do you know

Ottawa's issues are to do more with the owner than anything else.

I agree with you that Toronto isn't gutting the roster, but to be fair I don't see where the improvements are coming from especially if Marner holds out into the season. Based on what Aho's offer sheet is, how can anyone say this guy deserves less than 10.5 mill? Based on production isn't he a better producer than breadman?
- kaptaan

Panarin is a slightly better producer. And he scores slightly more goals. And he played with lesser talent.

But most importantly: Panarin was a UFA. Marner is an RFA.

Marner isn't holding out. Once Point signs, things will get done.

Signing JT was great PR & only that til they win something. As it stands it’s skewed the cap & the implications it created will be a huge challenge.
- Nighthawk

Yeah and if they didn't sign him the haters would be laughing at the Leafs like they did when they struck out on Richards and Stamkos.

"No big name free agent wants to sign in Toronto. The team is terrible, the fans and the media are terrible, blah blah blah"

Can't win either way.

Well I spent many years as a Leaf fan. It still bothers me when they repeat the sins of the past. The Leafs (under Dubas) are busy becoming the the northern version of the Tampa Bay Lightening. High skill regular season hype. Lack of character and jam in the playoffs.

Signing Tavares was dumb, dumb and dumber. Now the team is being gutted to try and compensate for the contract imbalances.

Most of you know that I right and I understand how you struggle in facing the painful reality of what has actually happened. I was a strong believer in the Shanaplan. I thought Lamerillo did a great job in bringing the Leafs into the playoffs faster than anybody first imagined. I don't Dubas gets it.
- spatso

Just because you say it over and over and over doesn't make it true.

What would your opinion be if he was a Senator?

you’ve only been on here for 2 years so what do you know
- Skalapy

Great Trade for the leafs. Being a sabres fan and playing against Kadri I have always loved his game and grit. A bit of a loose cannon but I would have taken him on the Sabres 100 times out of 100.

I am sorry to keep bringing up the elephant in the room.

This team has no heart. They are chokers in the games that really matter.

Kadri can be frustrating but he plays with heart and is a total team guy.

How do you improve a team when you take character out of the dressing room.

If anything I thought Dubas would be looking to add some character this off season.
- spatso

essentially dubas decided to move kadri and brown over nylander and i think that is a mistake that will be felt for seasons to come.

Yes, you are right the response is reasonable and if you give Dubas the benefit of a rookie year, perhaps I am being too hard on him.

Nevertheless, there is growing apprehension that the Leafs have topped out without ever having achieved any material post season success. Perhaps they moved too fast in wanting to achieve post season success. How does a team get themselves into a CAP nightmare without ever having won a playoff round?
- spatso

So you know what these guys are demanding a year ahead of time? And what the cap will go up to? Good to know.
- BoBBeR56

Obviously not, but it’s pretty simple to guess that muzzin will get a lot more than 4, Barrie will get a lot more than 5.5 (or whatever he’s making now) and dermott will obviously be making a lot more than 750K.

Almost zero chance the cap increases by more than the increased value of those 3 contracts

Panarin is a slightly better producer. And he scores slightly more goals. And he played with lesser talent.

But most importantly: Panarin was a UFA. Marner is an RFA.

Marner isn't holding out. Once Point signs, things will get done.
- Atomic Wedgie

I don’t think Marner and his camp are going to use point as a basis for comparison. As much as you guys don’t want to think that the Matthews contract is what set the precedence for Marner, it’s absolutely the contract he’s basing himself on.

Obviously not, but it’s pretty simple to guess that muzzin will get a lot more than 4, Barrie will get a lot more than 5.5 (or whatever he’s making now) and dermott will obviously be making a lot more than 750K.

Almost zero chance the cap increases by more than the increased value of those 3 contracts
- sensarmy_11

Ceci goes, Horton comes off the books, we bring up Liljegren and Sandin on entry level contracts.

I don’t think Marner and his camp are going to use point as a basis for comparison. As much as you guys don’t want to think that the Matthews contract is what set the precedence for Marner, it’s absolutely the contract he’s basing himself on.
- sensarmy_11

And it's not the contract that MLSEL is basing their offer on.

So we dance.

But thank you for taking the time to type out what is painfully obvious to everyone. Very insightful.

Obviously not, but it’s pretty simple to guess that muzzin will get a lot more than 4, Barrie will get a lot more than 5.5 (or whatever he’s making now) and dermott will obviously be making a lot more than 750K.

Almost zero chance the cap increases by more than the increased value of those 3 contracts
- sensarmy_11

So what you are saying is, you have no idea...

I don’t think Marner and his camp are going to use point as a basis for comparison. As much as you guys don’t want to think that the Matthews contract is what set the precedence for Marner, it’s absolutely the contract he’s basing himself on.
- sensarmy_11

Matthews is a goal scoring C.
Marner is a playmaking winger.
See: Kucherov

He shouldn't be basing his want on what JT or AM are making.

Matthews is a goal scoring C.
Marner is a playmaking winger.
See: Kucherov

He shouldn't be basing his want on what JT or AM are making.
- BoBBeR56

Could also trade marner for a D. Werenski or Provarov.

Man I hate Toronto but they won this deal without question...

It kinda pisses me off the Leafs got that return on that package....

Still tho, if I'm Marner I'm telling Dubas and Shanahan to go piss off.... None of these moves would have had to happen if they didn't sign Tavares.....

I honestly hope Lou offer-sheets Marner and he signs with the Islanders...

That would make me happy....

Toronto tried some late 90's Detroit or NYR nonsense signing Tavares and it failed miserably and rightly so..... Sorry but you can't just sign a top free agent and then expect your star RFA's to "take one for the team"..... And the craziest part is that when or if Marner leaves they will blame him for being greedy and not taking a discount...... Why should he?..... The Leafs would be fine right now and would have all their players they traded away if they didn't sign Tavares.... Now the Leafs will have a few star players and little depth.... Tho this trade does work in Toronto's favor, IMO it's still not enough... With the signing of Tavares, the Leafs went from a bright future to no future all in one pen stroke....

And I'm a Hawks fan, Toronto doesn't affect the Hawks at all, but what they did last summer really blew my mind - because they damn well knew they had to get Nylander, Marner and Matthews signed but blew that cap space on Tavares - that was totally irresponsible.... That's like spending your electric bill on beer and then when the bill comes you go pawn a bunch of crap to keep the lights on... Just irresponsible... It's worse than that tho because Dubas literally thinks Marner should take "one for the team" while Tavares makes his money.... Why the heck should Marner do that???

If I'm Marner I'm out of town, especially after getting bounced in the first round - there would be ZERO way I'm signing - I will sign a 12M AAV 5-year contract before I would look at any thing Toronto has to offer .... Because what they did was wrong....

So yea, Toronto can clear as much cap space they want but I don't think Marner will sign... The team got bounced in the first round and the team is arguably worse now than it was 2 weeks ago....
- Savard2Secord

oh