Sure? ...Matthews successfully compared himself to Malkin and got that kind of cap %. My point was/is that none of Marner, Rantanen, et al. compare to Stamkos and therefore none of them should get 9.5+ on a 5 yr deal.
- The Law

Ah, fair enough.

[quote=dragus84]

No doubt. It can't be a benchmark, but then it has some truth as well. It's no different than analytics criticizing guys that allow more chances per 60 when there are 4 other guys on the ice. It has some merit but not all.

Marner was certainly not riding coat tails.

Once JT signed a lot of those possibilities kind of went away.

I have a spreadsheet I made where I went through and looked at all the players who signed 5 or 6 year deals out of their ELC. A lot of high end picks do it, so the Matthews and Marner situation isn't a new thing.

I looked at the % of cap and their points/PPG, goals and 5v5 goals.
Coming out of their first 3 years, only Crosby and Malkin had more 5v5 points than Matthews, and only Malkin and Stamkos had more goals (Stamkos 119, Malkin 115, Matthews 111). 5v5 goals Matthews is way ahead, he has 86 second is Bobby Ryan with 72. Malkin had 68, Stamkos 69.

Ovechkin is way ahead of all of them though, but he signed a 13 year deal, he had 163 goals and 104 5v5.
- harps43

Yup, agreed. Matthews had the stats to support his cap %. My point was that Marner et al.... don't. Their best comps might be Toews/Kane which would put them at about 5 x 9.

[quote=aminnes]

Very true. I think for all the Gardiner hate. Being on the ice for 25 (or whatever the number was) more goals for than against has to mean something

It's gonna be so refreshing when Marner gets signed and we can focus on tweaking about Babcock again.

Yup, agreed. Matthews had the stats to support his cap %. My point was that Marner et al.... don't. Their best comps might be Toews/Kane which would put them at about 5 x 9.
- The Law

I think the issue is not necessarily the number itself. I just feel like dubas had some arguments he could have made back to help lower the number which In turn helps the leafs. He’s a phenomenal talent but with all the talent every little bit helps stay under the cap. Would have been nice to see the number a little lower or longer term.

never heard of them...
- 21peter

Petty used to play them on his show. They backed some big acts in the early sixties including Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry. They were less famous rivals of the Yardbirds.

Ah, fair enough.
- Steven_Seagull

To be honest my best guess is that Marner's side is demanding 5 x 9.5 and Leafs are inching towards 5 x 9 .......or 6 x 9.5.

This 11 million narrative has always been bs. He might have started by asking for 10.5 or 11 on a 8 yr deal but it sounds more like he's never been interested in 8 yrs.

Yup, agreed. Matthews had the stats to support his cap %. My point was that Marner et al.... don't. Their best comps might be Toews/Kane which would put them at about 5 x 9.
- The Law

Yea, Marner actually has the 3rd highest 5v5/SH points out of the guys I looked at on 5-6 year deals. Overall, Kane is the best comparable and he had an 11.09% of the cap on his second deal which would be a cap of 9.03 for Marner at 81.5m salary cap.

I think the issue is not necessarily the number itself. I just feel like dubas had some arguments he could have made back to help lower the number which In turn helps the leafs. He’s a phenomenal talent but with all the talent every little bit helps stay under the cap. Would have been nice to see the number a little lower or longer term.
- dragus84

Bonus structure should be worth something

Big rumour going around right now that Rogers has said goodbye to Don Cherry. I would like to say I will miss him but feel he has already outstayed his welcome.

Bonus structure should be worth something
- HealthyScratch6

Bonus structure. 5 year deal. Bit of an injury history. Career high 69 points (73 after the season).

I’m not saying he’s a 70 pt player. Just that I would have used these arguments in negotiations

To be honest my best guess is that Marner's side is demanding 5 x 9.5 and Leafs are inching towards 5 x 9 .......or 6 x 9.5.

This 11 million narrative has always been bs. He might have started by asking for 10.5 or 11 on a 8 yr deal but it sounds more like he's never been interested in 8 yrs.
- The Law

Marner will get 5 years X $10.5M and he'll be worth every penny. He is a brilliant player who can play when goals are needed and he can play when it's time to shut down the opposition. He kills penalties. He is a powerplay QB. His vision and approach to the game is some of the best EVER.

[quote=dragus84]

For me Gardiner can work in the right situation. Unfortunately the Leafs d has been so bad for so long that guys like him are misused. On the ice way too much from the very beginning of his career. He was a tire fire back then, but got better as he got older. His problem though is he has never moved on from getting flustered in the big moments. At his age I'm not sure he can in TO. Maybe on a team out of the lime light?

He also has a real flaw for a d man of his minutes in that he so rarely wins battles and steals the puck, to say nothing of the risky passes and giveaways. This is why plus minus can't be the ultimate judge, but a portion of the overall analysis.

Put him with a solid stay at home d man and he would work okay IMO.

I think the issue is not necessarily the number itself. I just feel like dubas had some arguments he could have made back to help lower the number which In turn helps the leafs. He’s a phenomenal talent but with all the talent every little bit helps stay under the cap. Would have been nice to see the number a little lower or longer term.
- dragus84

For him to get 5 years is a cave. 11.5 x 8 no issues.

Petty used to play them on his show. They backed some big acts in the early sixties including Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis and Chuck Berry. They were less famous rivals of the Yardbirds.
- winsix

did a full minute research just now

[quote=aminnes]

Ya. With all the gaffes it may be time to move on anyways

But almost a phaneuf type situation. People talked about him like he wasn’t an nhl caliber defenseman. Had he of been used as a 2/3 dman. Things would have been great (phaneuf)

[quote=aminnes]
He needs to be sheltered and given pp time. Maybe a number 4 with a defensively responsible partner but more realistically a good 5-6 with lots of offensive zone starts.

[quote=dragus84]

Yup. The club is mismanaged. Always has been.

They have a new Gardiner now on the right side. Albeit more physical and a little edgy which is good.

But ultimately why can;t this team find good defensive guys? Why so many offensive minded defensemen. Having a good mix would have been good for Gardiner, as it was for Shultz when he got the hell out of Edmonton.

What's with the quote issues?

Yup. The club is mismanaged. Always has been.
- aminnes

Including the past 4 years?

Yea, Marner actually has the 3rd highest 5v5/SH points out of the guys I looked at on 5-6 year deals. Overall, Kane is the best comparable and he had an 11.09% of the cap on his second deal which would be a cap of 9.03 for Marner at 81.5m salary cap.
- harps43

Yep.

He’s simply not worth it. Let’s hope he accepts a deal worth around there.

I have never known so many people be so invested on one team's cap situation. It's incredible.
- walshyleafsfan

I find it funny how us Leaf fans got absolutely thrashed for talking about Tavares coming to the Leafs days before free agency.

But Matthews? Yeah he’s leaving in 5 years. Marner? He’s gone in 4. Barrie and Muzzin? Pffft their contracts are up in a year they will be gone in no time.

(frank)ing hilarious how hypocritical people allow themselves to be.

What's with the quote issues?
- aminnes

System starts glitching when you make too many stupid posts

I find it funny how us Leaf fans got absolutely thrashed for talking about Tavares coming to the Leafs days before free agency.

But Matthews? Yeah he’s leaving in 5 years. Marner? He’s gone in 4. Barrie and Muzzin? Pffft their contracts are up in a year they will be gone in no time.

(frank)ing hilarious how hypocritical people allow themselves to be.
- Santo_44

“Tavares isn’t coming to Toronto.”

*Tavares signs with Toronto*

“It was a mistake for Toronto to sign Tavares.”