Just like with all the draft talking heads, who told you what they "learned" about Bowen Byram and Alex Turcotte and you got your feeling hurt when it was someone completely different in Kirby Dach...and the frankers cannot let it go --- saying "this pick will be what Bowman and Kelley are judged on...."

Good!

Let that be. But I know ultimately that they ONLY way Powers and Lazarus keep your jobs as "hockey explainers" is if we PAY for their terrific Athletic service, and that means continual examples of them trying to help them learn as they go, so we are happy and feel they were expert in their analysis...it is almost as if the articles and opinions MUST continue to tell us, the various stats to make the opinions so, they all are to help us and THEM form opinions on LEVELS they really know little abiout.

Oh, so you talked to some one in another reorganization and they said ????

I refuse to put much value of Lazarus or Powers opinion on things over the folks that run the organizations and many of you here.

Clearly both players wanted out, and felt like they deserved to bemused to THEIR STRENGTHS.

Jokiharju WAS timid and regressed - you can tell me all you want about you think he is a "top 4 guy" and I will tell you, he is a possible long term solution for a team in that capacity (and being #4 , well that is a whole lot players filling in there... and tell me about his IQ...(I grade IQ all year at the junior level) but whether some here want to belic=ve it he "kittied" under pressure, and in some of those last games he was gone for almost the entire rest of the minutes after gets roughed up.
That doesn't mean to say he actually cannot help a team, but when an NHL team trades a guy, they see him as less likely to be along term answer in their starting four in their all round play.

So your feelings got hurt tonight acquiring Alex Nylander, and when they took Dach, because the media had no idea AND STILL DOESN'T in regard to backstories and the organizational reasoning.
Clearly Jason Botterill (and you know how someone said no one has any insiders? - I gonna get one questioned asked to him by an old teammate hopefully soon on Nylander-Jokihaju...)is still learning his job, and if this deal endears him to the Sabres fans, great. But O'Reilly left because there was lots wrong, right?

I will say one thing:
The Blackhawks didn't have guy like Nylander in their system, a guy who if he gets his ass together, makes the PP better and just like the other offensive guys around the league, will be forgiven for defensive lapses if he is dominant with real NHL players giving him that opportunity.

They didn't have a guy like Dach in their system...a large beast who gets it defensively and once he progresses physically starts to possibly impose his will offensively...the pieces are there, more in place than any other guy in the at draft to help them all over and eventually as guy who is a big problem each shift offensively.

If you want to be sad because you really like Jokiharju and the hype train that got attached so quickly, make sure you do not do the same to Dach...or Nylander, if Alex can in, some us how he navigates the attack zone when he is not injured as he was with various maladies for three rushed years in minor pro.

If you move him to minor pro AHL, you don't place him in a position to NOT BE what he is ...a goal scorer.

Bowman already placed the vocal carrot out there for him to come to camp to be a top six guy, but it wasn't / isn't gonna be given to him, just like Jokiharju wasn't gonna her handed a sport as situational offense man, and I bet he won't in Buffalo either except they really aren'ta team in a position where there leaders haver stepped up...and if Nylander got his feelings hurt not being on "captain" Jack Eichel's wing, he will be disappointed if he expects it handed to him here or anywhere.

But clearly the hawks possibly added something theydont have in the system, fot=r something they had an abundance of....
- wiz1901

We don't always agree Wiz, but I think you're right on with this post. I especially agree with your "kittied" comment. Joker seemed smooth but when he got run I could tell he didn't handle it well. I remember thinking he wasn't going to be any help in a playoff series. Reminded me of TT. I would expect him to mature and have a nice career like TT seems to have going now. But I can believe he saw DeHaan and Matta being added and wanted out. And I think Shart is right about the agents conspiring to help make it happen.

I absolutely agree with you on the "experts". I've heard good things about Powers but never read much from him. But Lazerus, I've seen some bumholes come and go, but this guy is the biggest hoop yet. Just because someone is in the media doesn't mean they are an expert.

LOL .... The fact is Joki and Nylander are in exactly the same boat. Two first round picks who have failed to establish themselves to their first teams. You criticize Bowman for the trade in part because Nylander MIGHT become a minor leaguer while in a previous point you say Joki is just a fill in for an injury. If you approach every move Bowman makes as a bad one then guess what? Every move he makes is dumb. Why not wait and see what happens to two former first round picks and see how it all plays out?

As for "this organization no longer values grooming defensemen to actually play in Chicago." who exactly are you referring to? Seems to me they are grooming Boqvist and being patient with Mitchell, Krys and Beaudin to allow them to develop.

Let's see what happens. Maybe you're right and this is a bad trade. On the other hand maybe it was a steal for Chicago. We won't know for a couple of years.
- paulr

So you're saying it's too early to plan HOF party for joki and submit application for nylander as Rockford school system janitor?

Time will tell, but on the surface based on the relative trajectory of each player so far, since defensemen are harder to come by than forwards, it is hard to understand, at a minimum, why this was a one for one deal.

To the unseasoned eye, and I am definitely one, Ruuta was very good for about three months also, about the same amount of time that we saw Joker. So sure, he may not have been all he seemed.

The Hawks have clearly transitioned back to "win now" mode. Hopefully it will pay off, because my gut tells me we'll be looking back at this in a couple of years and realize that Jokiharju was the best of this crop of young defensemen.

And if it is "win now," is Nylander's style of play going to translate into "valuable asset for a playoff team?" We can hope.

If Joki has a lower ceiling great, but I still dont see a better one
on the roster yet, and we still don't know what daHaan or Matta
will bring

This team doesn't have a number one or two Dman on it, not sure
if it has a 3
- gazza53

Injuries aside, we know DeHaan and Mattaa are NHL calibre defensemen. We also know Joki is not an NHL calibre defenseman, at least not yet. I know in the last few weeks Joki had, in the eyes of a number of posters here, over taken Keith as the Hawks best defenseman but that never was, and isn't, the case. All the best to Joki in a new environment, hopefully he puts it all together and has a great NHL career but I hope Nylander's career ends up better more successful.

So you're saying it's too early to plan HOF party for joki and submit application for nylander as Rockford school system janitor?
- dpard

I need to practice Brevity don't I? Maybe I can ask Bob to help?

Only thing that makes sense here is that Joker wanted out. As it stands, I am not a fan of this trade. That cow has now left the barn. Let's hope Nylander can be another garage sale gem for Stan.

I need to practice Brevity don't I? Maybe I can ask Bob to help?
- paulr

Bob only knows rumors and some of them were ding, dong, dillies

Just like with all the draft talking heads, who told you what they "learned" about Bowen Byram and Alex Turcotte and you got your feeling hurt when it was someone completely different in Kirby Dach...and the frankers cannot let it go --- saying "this pick will be what Bowman and Kelley are judged on...."

Good!

Let that be. But I know ultimately that they ONLY way Powers and Lazarus keep your jobs as "hockey explainers" is if we PAY for their terrific Athletic service, and that means continual examples of them trying to help them learn as they go, so we are happy and feel they were expert in their analysis...it is almost as if the articles and opinions MUST continue to tell us, the various stats to make the opinions so, they all are to help us and THEM form opinions on LEVELS they really know little abiout.

Oh, so you talked to some one in another reorganization and they said ????

I refuse to put much value of Lazarus or Powers opinion on things over the folks that run the organizations and many of you here.

Clearly both players wanted out, and felt like they deserved to bemused to THEIR STRENGTHS.

Jokiharju WAS timid and regressed - you can tell me all you want about you think he is a "top 4 guy" and I will tell you, he is a possible long term solution for a team in that capacity (and being #4 , well that is a whole lot players filling in there... and tell me about his IQ...(I grade IQ all year at the junior level) but whether some here want to belic=ve it he "kittied" under pressure, and in some of those last games he was gone for almost the entire rest of the minutes after gets roughed up.
That doesn't mean to say he actually cannot help a team, but when an NHL team trades a guy, they see him as less likely to be along term answer in their starting four in their all round play.

So your feelings got hurt tonight acquiring Alex Nylander, and when they took Dach, because the media had no idea AND STILL DOESN'T in regard to backstories and the organizational reasoning.
Clearly Jason Botterill (and you know how someone said no one has any insiders? - I gonna get one questioned asked to him by an old teammate hopefully soon on Nylander-Jokihaju...)is still learning his job, and if this deal endears him to the Sabres fans, great. But O'Reilly left because there was lots wrong, right?

I will say one thing:
The Blackhawks didn't have guy like Nylander in their system, a guy who if he gets his ass together, makes the PP better and just like the other offensive guys around the league, will be forgiven for defensive lapses if he is dominant with real NHL players giving him that opportunity.

They didn't have a guy like Dach in their system...a large beast who gets it defensively and once he progresses physically starts to possibly impose his will offensively...the pieces are there, more in place than any other guy in the at draft to help them all over and eventually as guy who is a big problem each shift offensively.

If you want to be sad because you really like Jokiharju and the hype train that got attached so quickly, make sure you do not do the same to Dach...or Nylander, if Alex can in, some us how he navigates the attack zone when he is not injured as he was with various maladies for three rushed years in minor pro.

If you move him to minor pro AHL, you don't place him in a position to NOT BE what he is ...a goal scorer.

Bowman already placed the vocal carrot out there for him to come to camp to be a top six guy, but it wasn't / isn't gonna be given to him, just like Jokiharju wasn't gonna her handed a sport as situational offense man, and I bet he won't in Buffalo either except they really aren'ta team in a position where there leaders haver stepped up...and if Nylander got his feelings hurt not being on "captain" Jack Eichel's wing, he will be disappointed if he expects it handed to him here or anywhere.

But clearly the hawks possibly added something theydont have in the system, fot=r something they had an abundance of....
- wiz1901

Great post! Thanks!
If Joker was a top 4, than how come other teams were not lining up to get him?
Its not like Gusev was offered and SB said naw

A bit disappointed by this trade as I liked Henri...and really liked saying his name.

The handwriting has been all over the walls since his demotion to Rockford. If the Hawks truly considered him one of their top defenders, he would have been in Chicago when the Hawks made their last-season run and were within spitting distance of a playoff spot.

In addition - and i am hoping that I remember this correctly - Henri didn't exactly get "top 4" minutes in the IIHF finals vs Russia and Canada. I recall seeing his minutes in those box scores (which I could not locate this morning) and seem to remember his minutes being only 5th or 6th among the Finnish D-men. Being the only NHL player on that roster (at the time), I would have expected him to be seeing top line minutes. Finland's coach apparently felt that there were 4 other "non-NHL" D-men who were more deserving of critical ice time than Henri. To me, that was a major red flag.

The brass had obviously determined that his ceiling was lower than that of their other prospects, which is fine. Time will tell as it always does.

But the statistic of trading every 1st round player since rover was a pup is a bit of an indictment of their scouting prowess. Makes me nervous as it pertains to their "read" on Dach.

Seems like a ridiculously bad trade. So ridiculous that there must be something to it that we don't see. Unless it really is a matter of Hawks thinking highly of Nylander and not having room for Joki. That's what Stan said at least
- just69sayin

Nylander may flourish with the Hawks and the players they have. If it doesn't work out its not all gloom. You guys have won 3 cups in recent years.....3 cups.

We don't always agree Wiz, but I think you're right on with this post. I especially agree with your "kittied" comment. Joker seemed smooth but when he got run I could tell he didn't handle it well. I remember thinking he wasn't going to be any help in a playoff series. Reminded me of TT. I would expect him to mature and have a nice career like TT seems to have going now. But I can believe he saw DeHaan and Matta being added and wanted out. And I think Shart is right about the agents conspiring to help make it happen.

I absolutely agree with you on the "experts". I've heard good things about Powers but never read much from him. But Lazerus, I've seen some bumholes come and go, but this guy is the biggest hoop yet. Just because someone is in the media doesn't mean they are an expert.
- 6628

You get run and see how you handle it.

Talk trash all you want on the "experts" and support hockeybuzz bloggers, that's way better.

Unless you're in scouting dept or one or two guys nhl users to break news, you're throwing darts.

I don’t get the trade either.I don’t think you can have too many d-men prospects in your farm system. Hopefully Nylander turns out like Strome did.

If I were Ian Mitchell I'd complete my 4 years at Denver and hit free agency and get as far away from the Hawks as possible.
- ArlingtonRob

You're not, thankfully. Go root for the Minnesota Wild.

Only thing that makes sense here is that Joker wanted out. As it stands, I am not a fan of this trade. That cow has now left the barn. Let's hope Nylander can be another garage sale gem for Stan.
- z1990z

Don't you think we should give Nylander a chance before we classify him as Bovine fertilizer? Like Perlini, Nylander was a highly regarded junior player who has great speed and a ton of skill. Like Perlini there are questions about where his head is. Let's give him time to mature and to try to let his head catch up to his physical skills. If he or Perlini wind up being flops both have more than enough skill to be attractive to other teams to acquire.

Great post! Thanks!
If Joker was a top 4, than how come other teams were not lining up to get him?
Its not like Gusev was offered and SB said naw
- hockey nut 28

Stan never gave it a chance!

So if Nylander does have success with the Blackhawks and racks points up, it doesn't really matter I'm sure he'll want a fat contract like his brother. It sure will be interesting

Nylander may flourish with the Hawks and the players they have. If it doesn't work out its not all gloom. You guys have won 3 cups in recent years.....3 cups.
- sabreadvocate1

Most here are pissy that it's not 8 in a row.

Nylander may flourish with the Hawks and the players they have. If it doesn't work out its not all gloom. You guys have won 3 cups in recent years.....3 cups.
- sabreadvocate1

Many posters were too busy complaining about the anthem singer, McD the meddler, the loss of Uncle Dale, the post goal song, the media and "Stan Bowman riding on his father's coattails" to notice the team won three cups.

Don't you think we should give Nylander a chance before we classify him as Bovine fertilizer? Like Perlini, Nylander was a highly regarded junior player who has great speed and a ton of skill. Like Perlini there are questions about where his head is. Let's give him time to mature and to try to let his head catch up to his physical skills. If he or Perlini wind up being flops both have more than enough skill to be attractive to other teams to acquire.
- paulr

The cow/barn reference was not aimed at Nylander. I was merely saying the trade is done and nothing else to do but accept it. Lets hope Nylander can put it all together.

I’m trying my best not to react too harshly to any one individual transaction this offseason, and to wait and see what the sum total of all moves made looks like before forming a true opinion, but this one is a head scratcher for sure.

I’m baffled. Not so much that they made a trade that none of us really saw coming, but more so for the return that they got.

I feel like there’s another shoe to drop on this one. Hopefully Stan’s working on a trade centered on Nylander for Gusev or something like that.
- Ogilthorpe2

Yes - that would work quite nicely.

Nylander may flourish with the Hawks and the players they have. If it doesn't work out its not all gloom. You guys have won 3 cups in recent years.....3 cups.
- sabreadvocate1

That's true, very fortunate but that has nothing to do with this trade.

So you're saying it's too early to plan HOF party for joki and submit application for nylander as Rockford school system janitor?
- dpard

If it comes to that, I’m sure he can use Eli as a solid reference.

So if Nylander does have success with the Blackhawks and racks points up, it doesn't really matter I'm sure he'll want a fat contract like his brother. It sure will be interesting
- BetweenTheDots

That's the spirit!

That's the spirit!
- mohel

Yep, still venting

If it comes to that, I’m sure he can use Eli as a solid reference.
- Ogilthorpe2

He's busy educating America's Utes.