I'm with you. It's sort of like throwing your superstar on the 4th line for a shift to find a mis-match. Disco used to do it occasionally. It's not an every game thing, but it could be an interesting tactic to throw against an opposing team every now and again. Basically let Dahlin play center from the back end
- jcragcrumple

Marc Crawford used to double shift Jamie Benn in Dallas.

Edmonton fan has a trade on cap friendly of:

Risto + Sheary for RNH + Kassian

Two replies are that it's a good trade.

I don't know if that's an ideal trade for Buffalo.

Anyone have thoughts?

https://www.capfriendly.c.../armchair-gm/team/1327864
- thatsapickle

It’s an interesting idea

RNH the player is a good 2way Center
He’s exactly what we need “right now”
Just turned 26, with 2 years left @ 6mil per

Just got 69pts (28g-41a) splitting time between 2C and playing on McDavid’s wing (LW, i believe)
Those totals, especially the assists, seemed to be elevated by playing with McDavid
Generally, he seems more like a guy that scores in the low-mid20s with both goals and assists

So yeah, he’s nice for NOW
But there’s 2 big questions going forward imo
If we are trading Risto for him,
I want a guy who’s gonna be here longer than 2yrs, so...

1) what’s his next contract gonna look like?
I’m guessing something like 7x7mil, at least
Maybe even 8x8mil
That’s a lot if he’s gonna revert to a 50ish point player as a Center with us

2) where does he fit in going forward?
We have Mitts and Cozens coming as our 2C & 3C
So does 1 of them move to the wing?
Or do we plan on moving RNH to the wing once Mitts & Cozens are “ready” to take on those roles?
And will RNH be ok playing LW for a kid like Mitts or Cozens... or do we put him with Jack?
In which case, is Skinner ok being bumped down to line2?


I could definitely see it working out just fine
But it also might be better just to trade for a scoring winger
Especially if someone like Ehlers (3yrs younger, probably a better goal scorer) is really available for Risto

Not a fan of that chart. Scouting science has improved with better technology, and different factors are being held in higher regard. Plus it's only been recently that the NHL is taking less Canadians and more Europeans (respectively).. Scouting is scouting, it's all predictions, but the way we see players and are able to better understand how they will grow physically and mentally, I think that improves the odds.

You look at the more recent drafts, and you're seeing the probability of success increase. Also, going off simply points is probably not the way you want to go about spelling out 'success'
- TheSabresTaco

Your points may be well taken, but it isn't only that one chart that has the same curve. That's why I posted the link.

Here's another one that measures draft value based on TOI, using data from 2009 - 2016. Note the very similar curve.

It’s an interesting idea

RNH the player is a good 2way Center
He’s exactly what we need “right now”
Just turned 26, with 2 years left @ 6mil per

Just got 69pts (28g-41a) splitting time between 2C and playing on McDavid’s wing (LW, i believe)
Those totals, especially the assists, seemed to be elevated by playing with McDavid
Generally, he seems more like a guy that scores in the low-mid20s with both goals and assists

So yeah, he’s nice for NOW
But there’s 2 big questions going forward imo
If we are trading Risto for him,
I want a guy who’s gonna be here longer than 2yrs, so...

1) what’s his next contract gonna look like?
I’m guessing something like 7x7mil, at least
Maybe even 8x8mil
That’s a lot if he’s gonna revert to a 50ish point player as a Center with us

2) where does he fit in going forward?
We have Mitts and Cozens coming as our 2C & 3C
So does 1 of them move to the wing?
Or do we plan on moving RNH to the wing once Mitts & Cozens are “ready” to take on those roles?
And will RNH be ok playing LW for a kid like Mitts or Cozens... or do we put him with Jack?
In which case, is Skinner ok being bumped down to line2?


I could definitely see it working out just fine
But it also might be better just to trade for a scoring winger
Especially if someone like Ehlers (3yrs younger, probably a better goal scorer) is really available for Risto
- jdfitz77

What if we traded RNH him next year? What type of return could we get for him as a rental? Then we would be trading Risto for a year and a half of protection for Mitts, plus whatever we could get for RNH. I would think it could be a first and a prospect, right? While I like the idea of getting a "core" piece back, I wonder how many cores we can have. Dahlin, Eichel, Mitts, Cozens, Reinhart, Joker? At some point, I would have to think we "finalize" our core, and make sure we have the right complementary pieces in place for a run.

It’s an interesting idea

RNH the player is a good 2way Center
He’s exactly what we need “right now”
Just turned 26, with 2 years left @ 6mil per

Just got 69pts (28g-41a) splitting time between 2C and playing on McDavid’s wing (LW, i believe)
Those totals, especially the assists, seemed to be elevated by playing with McDavid
Generally, he seems more like a guy that scores in the low-mid20s with both goals and assists

So yeah, he’s nice for NOW
But there’s 2 big questions going forward imo
If we are trading Risto for him,
I want a guy who’s gonna be here longer than 2yrs, so...

1) what’s his next contract gonna look like?
I’m guessing something like 7x7mil, at least
Maybe even 8x8mil
That’s a lot if he’s gonna revert to a 50ish point player as a Center with us

2) where does he fit in going forward?
We have Mitts and Cozens coming as our 2C & 3C
So does 1 of them move to the wing?
Or do we plan on moving RNH to the wing once Mitts & Cozens are “ready” to take on those roles?
And will RNH be ok playing LW for a kid like Mitts or Cozens... or do we put him with Jack?
In which case, is Skinner ok being bumped down to line2?


I could definitely see it working out just fine
But it also might be better just to trade for a scoring winger
Especially if someone like Ehlers (3yrs younger, probably a better goal scorer) is really available for Risto
- jdfitz77

RNH is minimum 8.5 AAV on his next contract.

Who wants to see how angry everyone was when we drafted Ristolainen instead of Valeri Nichushkin?

Enjoy.

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=107905&page=24
- TheSabresTaco

That was great, thanks
Bunch of ppl overreacting, just like they still do today
Was fun to see some old names who don’t come around anymore

My favorite post

“Someone is going to (frank)ing die”

We are a reasonable bunch
- sbroads24

I didn’t realize your hate for Risto went back that far 😂😂😂

Your points may be well taken, but it isn't only that one chart that has the same curve. That's why I posted the link.

Here's another one that measures draft value based on TOI, using data from 2009 - 2016. Note the very similar curve.




- Der Kaiser

I don't have a problem accepting that data, as far as value is concerned overall. But just like all your other analytical charts, it warrants skepticism. You take that chart at face value, why the (frank) would I want any other pick than like, the first 3 or 4 picks?

But then you go around recent drafts, these mid firsts to late seconds, your hit rate for at the very least a serviceable player is around 40-50%. Most players in your top 5, they're going to be high offensive output and/or elite defensemen, at least that's the goal. Which is why I believe this value chart looks as such. It's a reflection of high end, box score talent, and your chances of scoring said talent.

You're not going to find Connor McDavid in the second round, but you can certainly find Patrice Bergeron, Kris Letang and Shea Weber in the 2nd.

My overall point is, while the graph establishes its essential purpose of value based on projected points in the NHL, it doesn't nearly provide enough information about the true value that can be found in the earlier rounds.

What if we traded RNH him next year? What type of return could we get for him as a rental? Then we would be trading Risto for a year and a half of protection for Mitts, plus whatever we could get for RNH. I would think it could be a first and a prospect, right? While I like the idea of getting a "core" piece back, I wonder how many cores we can have. Dahlin, Eichel, Mitts, Cozens, Reinhart, Joker? At some point, I would have to think we "finalize" our core, and make sure we have the right complementary pieces in place for a run.
- ajb2493

I wouldn’t wanna move Risto for a guy we will have for 1 season
Gotta be another “core” guy imo

I don't have a problem accepting that data, as far as value is concerned overall. But just like all your other analytical charts, it warrants skepticism. You take that chart at face value, why the (frank) would I want any other pick than like, the first 3 or 4 picks?

But then you go around recent drafts, these mid firsts to late seconds, your hit rate for at the very least a serviceable player is around 40-50%. Most players in your top 5, they're going to be high offensive output and/or elite defensemen, at least that's the goal. Which is why I believe this value chart looks as such. It's a reflection of high end, box score talent, and your chances of scoring said talent.

You're not going to find Connor McDavid in the second round, but you can certainly find Patrice Bergeron, Kris Letang and Shea Weber in the 2nd.

My overall point is, while the graph establishes its essential purpose of value based on projected points in the NHL, it doesn't nearly provide enough information about the true value that can be found in the earlier rounds.
- TheSabresTaco

The second graph has nothing to do with points in the NHL. It is TOI. It is based on whether you find a guy who is going to get on the ice for the team.

I wouldn’t wanna move Risto for a guy we will have for 1 season
Gotta be another “core” guy imo
- jdfitz77

That's a good view and I generally agree with

However I don't see a point in trading Risto for a center then

Any core center would take a spot from Mitts or Cozens in the top 6

But a guy like RNH could move to the wing but his contract only has 2 years left

I like RNH the player a lot, I don't love his contract (lack of term) though

That's a good view and I generally agree with

However I don't see a point in trading Risto for a center then

Any core center would take a spot from Mitts or Cozens in the top 6

But a guy like RNH could move to the wing but his contract only has 2 years left

I like RNH the player a lot, I don't love his contract (lack of term) though
- Stripes77

If you only need him for a year, then flip him next summer. Or it's like having a 2-year rental. Teams give up comparable value just to have a guy for 3 months

I wouldn’t wanna move Risto for a guy we will have for 1 season
Gotta be another “core” guy imo
- jdfitz77

I'm curious... how many "core" players are on a team? Who do you think is core for a team like Boston, Toronto, or Tampa? How many core players do we currently have?

If you only need him for a year, then flip him next summer. Or it's like having a 2-year rental. Teams give up comparable value just to have a guy for 3 months
- jcragcrumple

Yeah but you're not going to flip him for a 2nd pairing defensemen

You'll end up only getting picks for him

So it would be flipping Risto for a year of RNH and a couple of 2nd round picks (teams are smarter about throwing away 1st round picks at the deadline)

You're getting 50 points out of a player for a year and a late first or 2 2nds for Risto, it's not the return I would be looking for in a Risto trade

Yeah but you're not going to flip him for a 2nd pairing defensemen

You'll end up only getting picks for him

So it would be flipping Risto for a year of RNH and a couple of 2nd round picks (teams are smarter about throwing away 1st round picks at the deadline)

You're getting 50 points out of a player for a year and a late first or 2 2nds for Risto, it's not the return I would be looking for in a Risto trade
- Stripes77

I'm good with Mantha, Ehlers or RNH so I don't really have a horse in this race, but it wouldn't bother me if we turned Risto into RNH and he just walked after two years.

Yeah but you're not going to flip him for a 2nd pairing defensemen

You'll end up only getting picks for him

So it would be flipping Risto for a year of RNH and a couple of 2nd round picks (teams are smarter about throwing away 1st round picks at the deadline)

You're getting 50 points out of a player for a year and a late first or 2 2nds for Risto, it's not the return I would be looking for in a Risto trade
- Stripes77

Or get good hockey player. Sign good hockey player to extension.

Worry about the rest later.

If Botts is worrying about acquiring a center now because Mitts or Cozens May be ready in 2 years this team will never win.

Or get good hockey player. Sign good hockey player to extension.

Worry about the rest later.

If Botts is worrying about acquiring a center now because Mitts or Cozens May be ready in 2 years this team will never win.
- ImThatGuy

I am all about getting said good hockey players

I also like to look at the salary cap long term

Long term the team isn't in any issues...yet

But with Reinhart's next deal followed by Dahlin's it could get a little dicey with Skinner and Eichel already eating up $19 million in cap space, adding a RNH and his new deal it could get UGLY

Buffalo doesn't have the allure of a Vegas or Tampa where players take team friendly deals (that whole state income tax thing plus ya know they're contending teams)

That is my only potential issue with RNH

I am all about getting said good hockey players

I also like to look at the salary cap long term

Long term the team isn't in any issues...yet

But with Reinhart's next deal followed by Dahlin's it could get a little dicey with Skinner and Eichel already eating up $19 million in cap space, adding a RNH and his new deal it could get UGLY

Buffalo doesn't have the allure of a Vegas or Tampa where players take team friendly deals (that whole state income tax thing plus ya know they're contending teams)

That is my only potential issue with RNH
- Stripes77

So the Sabres end up like Toronto or Tampa or Vegas and they can’t afford all the good players?

Sounds terrible.

Or get good hockey player. Sign good hockey player to extension.

Worry about the rest later.

If Botts is worrying about acquiring a center now because Mitts or Cozens May be ready in 2 years this team will never win.
- ImThatGuy

Yea, I agree with this. We don't know if Mitts or Cozens will ever reach their full potential. If they do, we can always trade one of them or RNH for a return. Or move someone to wing. Or have the deepest set of centers ever. If Mitts was ready this year for 2C, its a different story. But how many players have we had that have never reached their full potential?

So the Sabres end up like Toronto or Tampa or Vegas and they can’t afford all the good players?

Sounds terrible.
- ImThatGuy

How many cups have those teams won?

Look I get what you're saying but Toronto is Toronto and has that "aura" about it

Vegas and Tampa play in a no state income tax states, warm weather "fun" cities

Buffalo can't compare to them

The second graph has nothing to do with points in the NHL. It is TOI. It is based on whether you find a guy who is going to get on the ice for the team.
- Der Kaiser

TOI or ATOI seems unreliable to me as well. There's no account for forwards or D, as their TOI is typically 4-5 minutes apart from the top D to top F, and it doesn't seem to account for development time. A guy drafted in the first round will of course have several thousand more minutes than a guy drafted in the 5th round of that same year, if both are successful NHL players.

I could be wrong with that assessment, but that's the way it presents itself.

Or get good hockey player. Sign good hockey player to extension.

Worry about the rest later.

If Botts is worrying about acquiring a center now because Mitts or Cozens May be ready in 2 years this team will never win.
- ImThatGuy

Or just let him go. We need a 2C for 1-2 years. We have approximately 312 defensive prospects coming. Turn a surplus defenseman into a center for the desired length of time, and then let him go. Players leave in FA all the time. It's not that big of a deal. By that time, it might actually be advantageous that he and his salary are leaving. Right now we need him

I am all about getting said good hockey players

I also like to look at the salary cap long term

Long term the team isn't in any issues...yet

But with Reinhart's next deal followed by Dahlin's it could get a little dicey with Skinner and Eichel already eating up $19 million in cap space, adding a RNH and his new deal it could get UGLY

Buffalo doesn't have the allure of a Vegas or Tampa where players take team friendly deals (that whole state income tax thing plus ya know they're contending teams)

That is my only potential issue with RNH
- Stripes77

Hence why you're probably looking for a short term option, with the perception that CM/Cozens come in and fight for 2C within the next 3 years.

Or just let him go. We need a 2C for 1-2 years. We have approximately 312 defensive prospects coming. Turn a surplus defenseman into a center for the desired length of time, and then let him go. Players leave in FA all the time. It's not that big of a deal. By that time, it might actually be advantageous that he and his salary are leaving. Right now we need him
- jcragcrumple

If the Sabres are a contending team I am completely fine with holding on to him for a playoff run and if he walks he walks

I just don't see this team being true contenders in the 2020-2021 season

If they are then okay if not it's bad asset management to let him walk for nothing

How many cups have those teams won?

Look I get what you're saying but Toronto is Toronto and has that "aura" about it

Vegas and Tampa play in a no state income tax states, warm weather "fun" cities

Buffalo can't compare to them
- Stripes77

come now, you're better than this.