You were the one who called me dumb for suggesting he was a borderline 2nd/high end 3rd line center.

Now today, those are just titles?

Have a good day
- corduroy

Best players per position (top 9)
LW - G/ JVR/ OL/ Raf
C - Coots/ Hayes/ Patty
RW - V/ TK/ ?

But does it mean that is where the coach is going to get the most out of his match ups. No. You have to find combs that work.

I know you know this. Think you are just stirring the pot.

Best players per position (top 9)
LW - G/ JVR/ OL/ Raf
C - Coots/ Hayes/ Patty
RW - V/ TK/ ?

But does it mean that is where the coach is going to get the most out of his match ups. No. You have to find combs that work.

I know you know this. Think you are just stirring the pot.
- peesinwind

It seems that 1st line/2nd line only matter when they defend a point you support. I call Hayes a third line center am told he is a 2nd line center, stats support it I am told.

I ask that he is now a first line center and today it’s just a title.

Don’t waffle, man up and stand by your thoughts and opinions

Switch G and Lindblom and I like those lines. I think the race for top goal scorer will be between Coots, Lindblom and JVR and each should play with good set up men which also gives those guys a finisher to play with.

Coots gets G and Jake. (Jake also has two good scores to set up). Lindblom has Hayes to set him up and TK can buzz on that line. Hayes will need a scorer if we expect him to approach 60 pts. Hopefully OL and TK can score 50 between the two of them. JVR has Patrick and likely Frost to set him up. Also gives Frost 2 guys who should score 20 to set up (assuming Patrick doesn't bust which I don't expect, I think he's just gonna take some time like many of the Centers from Coots draft).
- hockeyphan25

Odds are Frost starts in the AHL. I personally think Giroux and Voracek should play on different lines.

The line I was excited for but never happened. JvR-Patrick-Voracek. These guys were tried together in camp and then suddenly the Lindblom/Patrick chemistry took priority.

It seems that 1st line/2nd line only matter when they defend a point you support. I call Hayes a third line center am told he is a 2nd line center, stats support it I am told.

I ask that he is now a first line center and today it’s just a title.

Don’t waffle, man up and stand by your thoughts and opinions
- corduroy

you arent grasping it yet lol.

you arent grasping it yet lol.
- Richieattack18

You are the one who argued that he is a second line center, and I am the one who does not get it?

You are the one who argued that he is a second line center, and I am the one who does not get it?
- corduroy

If we call the Giroux-hayes-tk line the 2nd line will that make it better for you?

What, realistically, would it take and would we give up for Laine?

Granted he had a down year last year with 30 goals, 50 points and a -24 but I would still take that production on the FLyers.
- opeth_pa

Too much.

If we call the Giroux-hayes-tk line the 2nd line will that make it better for you?
- bulet13

Pretty sure usage wise that would be the first line. They’d get the most 5/5 ice time and see the oppositions top 2 D-men.

I thought the team needed a stud center like the “I never have amassed 60 points in a season” Kevin Hayes so Patrick could center the 3rd line and get better match ups against the oppositions defense.

I have now seen the light and understand that regardless of your usage, you are just a player on the team. Lines like 1,3and 5 are just titles

Pretty sure usage wise that would be the first line. They’d get the most 5/5 ice time and see the oppositions top 2 D-men.

I thought the team needed a stud center like the “I never have amassed 60 points in a season” Kevin Hayes so Patrick could center the 3rd line and get better match ups against the oppositions defense.

I have now seen the light and understand that regardless of your usage, you are just a player on the team. Lines like 1,3and 5 are just titles
- corduroy

This really isn't a difficult concept

You are the one who argued that he is a second line center, and I am the one who does not get it?
- corduroy

Not much to argue when a player averaged .77 ppg

It seems that 1st line/2nd line only matter when they defend a point you support. I call Hayes a third line center am told he is a 2nd line center, stats support it I am told.

I ask that he is now a first line center and today it’s just a title.

Don’t waffle, man up and stand by your thoughts and opinions
- corduroy

I see your point and I would agree that he is a strong second liner. I have seen an article point out that his adjusted scoring was good enough for the 28th best center but was getting paid as the 20th best center. It would suggest he is at least a strong 2C so those people that call him a 3C maybe thinking only on a contender team.

I think this discussion today centered (no pun intended) around creating usable lines. I may have missed it but I didn’t see anybody call him a first line center. Just put him on a line with G and TK (and listed that line first). Nobody is suggesting that he is better then Coots. Just looking at making workable lines. Lines that fit is the discussion. Not saying I agree with these lines but fit is a real thing.

This really isn't a difficult concept
- bulet13

I know right!!! Skilled players play more relating to their ice time. Teams generally have 4 lines of forwards and 3 sets of D pairs. Ice player A centers players B and C for 20 minutes a night at 5/5 against the oppositions top defensemen, doesn’t that make them their teams top line? Simple math tells me 1 is higher than 4, so it would seem that those players are on the top line?

If a D-Man sees 25 minutes of ice against the oppositions top players does that not make him a 1/2 D-man?

I guess none of that makes sense and lines are just titles and who cares?

I see your point and I would agree that he is a strong second liner. I have seen an article point out that his adjusted scoring was good enough for the 28th best center but was getting paid as the 20th best center. It would suggest he is at least a strong 2C so those people that call him a 3C maybe thinking only on a contender team.

I think this discussion today centered (no pun intended) around creating usable lines. I may have missed it but I didn’t see anybody call him a first line center. Just put him on a line with G and TK (and listed that line first). Nobody is suggesting that he is better then Coots. Just looking at making workable lines. Lines that fit is the discussion. Not saying I agree with these lines but fit is a real thing.
- peesinwind

I made a simple statement. “I had no idea Hayes was a 1st line center.”

People then started with there are no lines just titles, even though after Hayes was signed, he was an upgrade as a second line center.

I don’t understand why people get mad and indigent when their hypocrisy is what is being called out

I made a simple statement. “I had no idea Hayes was a 1st line center.”

People then started with there are no lines just titles, even though after Hayes was signed, he was an upgrade as a second line center.

I don’t understand why people get mad and indigent when their hypocrisy is what is being called out
- corduroy

No, what you either fail to understand or refuse to is that noone called him a first line center. I put him on my "first line" because I was trying to take into account chemistry and balanced scoring. TK is not our best right wing yet he is on the first line. Why aren't you annoyed about that? You're using your hatred of Hayes (who hasn't even played a game for us yet) to try to make every discussion with him turn into a stupid argument.

No, what you either fail to understand or refuse to is that noone called him a first line center. I put him on my "first line" because I was trying to take into account chemistry and balanced scoring. TK is not our best right wing yet he is on the first line. Why aren't you annoyed about that? You're using your hatred of Hayes (who hasn't even played a game for us yet) to try to make every discussion with him turn into a stupid argument.
- bulet13

Again, those who see the most ice 5/5 are listed as 1,2,3,4 lines centers or wingers. Same as D-Men, based on usage are 1,2,3 pairings.

So if you are putting Hayes on a line with giroux, you are saying he is on the first line.

It’s funny that everyone had a stiffy that Hayes was going to be a 2nd line center a few weeks ago and today lines do not matter.

Question for you, if lines don’t matter why do hero charts, skatr, charts etc rank players using 1,2,3,4 lines? They’re just titles right?

What, realistically, would it take and would we give up for Laine?

Granted he had a down year last year with 30 goals, 50 points and a -24 but I would still take that production on the FLyers.
- opeth_pa

Probably one of Ghost, Sanhiem, or Provy

*And*

One of TK, Patrick, Frost or Farabee.

I'd be over the moon if we landed Liane but it's going to cost a lot.

Probably one of Ghost, Sanhiem, or Provy

*And*

One of TK, Patrick, Frost or Farabee.

I'd be over the moon if we landed Liane but it's going to cost a lot.
- hereticpride

Laine is like an OV that only gives a poop 50% of the time.

(Players just voted him 2nd most overrated player in The Athletic poll)

No, what you either fail to understand or refuse to is that noone called him a first line center. I put him on my "first line" because I was trying to take into account chemistry and balanced scoring. TK is not our best right wing yet he is on the first line. Why aren't you annoyed about that? You're using your hatred of Hayes (who hasn't even played a game for us yet) to try to make every discussion with him turn into a stupid argument.
- bulet13

I get it now. Didn’t catch on about his agenda with the Hayes hating. Makes sense now. I’m actually looking forward to see what Hayes can bring to the team. I really think the biggest score was AV though. And the additions at Asst.

Going to fun watching things play out at camp.

Laine is like an OV that only gives a poop 50% of the time.

(Players just voted him 2nd most overrated player in The Athletic poll)
- Tomahawk

Twenty four of his thirty goals came before mid-January which meant he pretty much did Richard for two and one half months.

I get it now. Didn’t catch on about his agenda with the Hayes hating. Makes sense now. I’m actually looking forward to see what Hayes can bring to the team. I really think the biggest score was AV though. And the additions at Asst.

Going to fun watching things play out at camp.
- peesinwind

Im excited since most of Hayes production is at 5 on 5. An area we struggled at the past several years.

Again, those who see the most ice 5/5 are listed as 1,2,3,4 lines centers or wingers. Same as D-Men, based on usage are 1,2,3 pairings.

So if you are putting Hayes on a line with giroux, you are saying he is on the first line.

It’s funny that everyone had a stiffy that Hayes was going to be a 2nd line center a few weeks ago and today lines do not matter.

Question for you, if lines don’t matter why do hero charts, skatr, charts etc rank players using 1,2,3,4 lines? They’re just titles right?
- corduroy

Let me put this in context even you can understand. LAST season Nolan Patrick played on the top line with Giroux while Coots played with Lindblom and Voracek. Does that make NoPa a #1 C? No it was nothing but a title, he played there because the coach felt that was a good way to get him producing. Putting Hayes there is the exact same approach.

Defense and Forwards are completely different. Most DMen play both PK and PP. Provorov is an exception as he doesnt play the top PP. On D you are splitting 60 mins of ice time among three lines as opposed to 4 forward lines.

The TOI between line 1 and 2 is not much different if there is any difference at EVSTR. Of course you will see a difference because of PP time and PK time. TOI is situational. A guy like Raffl could have more Ice time than Voracek if the Flyers take a lot of penalties which has happened. NHL has grown to a point where all 3 lines are used pretty frequently.

https://hfboards.mandator...rd-4th-line-play.1738063/

Im excited since most of Hayes production is at 5 on 5. An area we struggled at the past several years.
- Richieattack18

Fit has been mentioned some by posters here but Fletcher as mentioned it and Bill has brought it up some. I think this is pretty important to gaining 4 working forwards as well as 3 D pairings. Having guys on their most effective side on D is valuable. The better mix of talents and experience shouldn’t be over looked by just seeing individuals.

AV is going to have some stuff to work with. Hayes is a great fit on this team. AV knows this better then just about anybody.

Let me put this in context even you can understand. LAST season Nolan Patrick played on the top line with Giroux while Coots played with Lindblom and Voracek. Does that make NoPa a #1 C? No it was nothing but a title, he played there because the coach felt that was a good way to get him producing. Putting Hayes there is the exact same approach.

Defense and Forwards are completely different. Most DMen play both PK and PP. Provorov is an exception as he doesnt play the top PP. On D you are splitting 60 mins of ice time among three lines as opposed to 4 forward lines.

The TOI between line 1 and 2 is not much different if there is any difference at EVSTR. Of course you will see a difference because of PP time and PK time. TOI is situational. A guy like Raffl could have more Ice time than Voracek if the Flyers take a lot of penalties which has happened. NHL has grown to a point where all 3 lines are used pretty frequently.

https://hfboards.mandator...rd-4th-line-play.1738063/
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

If a player like Raffl sees more ice time due to penalties, it's not going to be with ES ice time, it will be with PK ice time. Special team ice time is irrelevant to any discussion of 1st line, 2nd line etc. Also wouldn't be about just one game with an outlier in a normal situation. So your example using Raffl doesn't make much sense in this discussion.

If a player like Raffl sees more ice time due to penalties, it's not going to be with ES ice time, it will be with PK ice time. Special team ice time is irrelevant to any discussion of 1st line, 2nd line etc. Also wouldn't be about just one game with an outlier in a normal situation. So your example using Raffl doesn't make much sense in this discussion.
- MJL

The idea is that teams dont always play their best center or wingers on the "first" line, especially if the teams best player is a winger