You and the UFC guy are so obsessed with me that you have no credibility. If I was extremely hot and in extreme pain and you told me I was on fire, I still wouldn't believe you.
- James_Tanner

im sure they wouldnt piss on you to put it out, either

THis is so stupid. Almost every team has done this in the last five years. But a lot of it is tokenism. The Leafs have 8 or so guys. The Flyers might have hired a couple dudes, but they sure as hell don't act like they listen to anything they have to say.
- James_Tanner

It's so stupid yet it shows how uninformed you are concerning Hextall. You've yet to provide anything of substance to support your statement that Hextall doesn't seem to care about analytics.

You and the UFC guy are so obsessed with me that you have no credibility. If I was extremely hot and in extreme pain and you told me I was on fire, I still wouldn't believe you.
- James_Tanner

You've got nothing Tanner. As usual. This isn't an obsession for me. It doesn't require nearly that much of an effort to expose you.

I guess my problem is that you either trade Girioux and Voracek in their primes and stack your system , or you trade the future to get them help now. But he couldn't pick a lane - which ultimately got him fired.

When you look at how the Leafs, Avs and Rangers tore it down and rebuilt in such short time periods, I just don't think anyone should be defending Hextall. The more I read about him, the more info I get the worse he seems.
- James_Tanner

As usual you dont see any middle ground. That's your problem. Youre also wrong and you obviously dont know why he was fired. Upper level management would've never approved of trading Giroux in a complete rebuild. They wanted to remain competitive.

As usual you dont see any middle ground. That's your problem. Youre also wrong and you obviously dont know why he was fired. Upper level management would've never approved of trading Giroux in a complete rebuild. They wanted to remain competitive.
- MJL

Why hasn't Chayka traded OEL? Think of the picks he could get! Or why doesn't he go all in and surround OEL with elite talent? He should pick a lane huh?

Although Chayka would probably trade OEL for peanuts, like he did with Domi and Strome.

im sure they wouldnt piss on you to put it out, either
- KINGKENZO

they might do explosive diarrhea though

I guess my problem is that you either trade Girioux and Voracek in their primes and stack your system , or you trade the future to get them help now. But he couldn't pick a lane - which ultimately got him fired.

When you look at how the Leafs, Avs and Rangers tore it down and rebuilt in such short time periods, I just don't think anyone should be defending Hextall. The more I read about him, the more info I get the worse he seems.
- James_Tanner

I actually agree with you there. It's just crazy that even though I admit it is a different sport, no one seems to still learn the lesson from Jimmy Johnson. If you are going to rebuild, trade the person with the most trade value. If Snider wouldn't approve trading Giroux when Hextall started that's fine, but I'm not sure that he would have nixed Voracek. At that time Voracek was a top 20 player in the league, he would have commanded a king's ransom. I don't know how the Rangers rebuild will turn out, but I'm happy for the most part we traded almost everything of value that we could. Put as many bullets in the chamber.

Hextall's other problem to me is it appears that his plan was to bank on every prospect hitting their max potential, that isn't a great strategy. Hextall drafting record is quite good, but every team has swings and misses. Morin is in bust territory, the early returns on JOB are not good, and Rubustov looks like he might still get it together, but hasn't had a great start. I can't blame him for Patrick, but we can all agree he hasn't come out of the gates like I'm sure Flyers fans wanted him too. Again comparing to the Rangers, statistically some of our guys will probably bust or at least not be as good as advertised. Lias could be the first of those individuals, though I hope he puts it together. What we did do well is give ourselves as many chances to succeed as we could. It's also why the Schenn trade I think was a home run for Hextall.

The above reasons is why you always have to tinker with the pro roster to improve in case things don't go as planned. He really was poor in that regard. Guys like Fillpula are probably a little better than their perception is, but there was no reason for him to continue to take dead weight contracts. Maybe Jiri got him the extra first in the Schenn trade, but Hextall ruined the bottom 6 for the Flyers for several seasons with guys like that.

That all being said, way worse GMs than Hextall have gotten second and third chances. He absolutely deserves one. Several coaches and GM have gotten better in their second stints. In recent history Jim Rutherford is a prime example.

I actually agree with you there. It's just crazy that even though I admit it is a different sport, no one seems to still learn the lesson from Jimmy Johnson. If you are going to rebuild, trade the person with the most trade value. If Snider wouldn't approve trading Giroux when Hextall started that's fine, but I'm not sure that he would have nixed Voracek. At that time Voracek was a top 20 player in the league, he would have commanded a king's ransom. I don't know how the Rangers rebuild will turn out, but I'm happy for the most part we traded almost everything of value that we could. Put as many bullets in the chamber.

Hextall's other problem to me is it appears that his plan was to bank on every prospect hitting their max potential, that isn't a great strategy. Hextall drafting record is quite good, but every team has swings and misses. Morin is in bust territory, the early returns on JOB are not good, and Rubustov looks like he might still get it together, but hasn't had a great start. I can't blame him for Patrick, but we can all agree he hasn't come out of the gates like I'm sure Flyers fans wanted him too. Again comparing to the Rangers, statistically some of our guys will probably bust or at least not be as good as advertised. Lias could be the first of those individuals, though I hope he puts it together. What we did do well is give ourselves as many chances to succeed as we could. It's also why the Schenn trade I think was a home run for Hextall.

The above reasons is why you always have to tinker with the pro roster to improve in case things don't go as planned. He really was poor in that regard. Guys like Fillpula are probably a little better than their perception is, but there was no reason for him to continue to take dead weight contracts. Maybe Jiri got him the extra first in the Schenn trade, but Hextall ruined the bottom 6 for the Flyers for several seasons with guys like that.

That all being said, way worse GMs than Hextall have gotten second and third chances. He absolutely deserves one. Several coaches and GM have gotten better in their second stints. In recent history Jim Rutherford is a prime example.
- 2sticks1puck

More misinformation here. Do you honestly believe that an experienced and knowledgeable professional hockey executive like Hextall would in any way think that all prospects would hit their max potential? Let's just use some common sense here to refute that narrative. In fact, Hextall's plan was to acquire and use as many draft picks as they can with the idea that the more picks you make, the better chance you have of hitting on enough players.

Filppula was a quality add for the short term and he was a big reason why the Flyers made the playoffs that season. They had a big hole at the center spot last season due to Patrick's slow development.

Hextall didn't ruin the bottom 6 for the Flyers. There was a lack of talent coming in to fill the bottom 6. He whiffed on a few moves such as the Weise signing but that is going to happen with any GM.

Let's look at a couple of situations and what Tanner's response was to the moves made by a GM of a team.

Chayka, the GM of the Arizonea Coyotes, essentially turns 24 year old Max Domi, who just had a breakout 28 goal, 70 point season with Montreal, into 31 year old Phil Kessel

Tanner's verdict: Great move, Chayka is the best GM in the NHL, Kessel is a great player.

Ron Hextall when he was the GM of the Flyers, did not do a complete breakdown and did not trade Giroux or Voracek

Tanner's verdict: Hextall is a bad GM because both players are past their prime, and you don't want players signed to those contracts when they're 31-34 years of age. Giroux is no longer a top player in the league.

More misinformation here. Do you honestly believe that an experienced and knowledgeable professional hockey executive like Hextall would in any way think that all prospects would hit their max potential? Let's just use some common sense here to refute that narrative. In fact, Hextall's plan was to acquire and use as many draft picks as they can with the idea that the more picks you make, the better chance you have of hitting on enough players.

Filppula was a quality add for the short term and he was a big reason why the Flyers made the playoffs that season. They had a big hole at the center spot last season due to Patrick's slow development.

Hextall didn't ruin the bottom 6 for the Flyers. There was a lack of talent coming in to fill the bottom 6. He whiffed on a few moves such as the Weise signing but that is going to happen with any GM.
- MJL

Having talent on the bottom 6 is sorta the GMs job. Getting at least serviceable bottom guys are like a dime a dozen.

We both agree that GMs need to make as many picks as possible, but that's even more reason that they should have traded Giroux or Voracek from the start. Not only could they have gotten top picks/prospects for them, they probably could have gotten a young good roster player too. The Richards and Carter trades are perfect blueprints for this.

I myself admitted Filpulla was an underrated acquisition. I actually said on the Rangers board he wouldn't be a bad option until Chytil was ready a couple months ago.

The problem I have is the Flyers goal was to remain competitive while retooling. I know the term competitive is a subjective claim, but I don't really consider losing in the first round where you were heavy underdogs as a "competitive" season. I might give you a pass on the 16-17 season because you finished solidly third in the division and fought the Pens pretty hard, but one out of several years isn't making the grade. It's why I don't support when teams just "retool" very often. If you want to blow it up, blow it up.

Let's look at a couple of situations and what Tanner's response was to the moves made by a GM of a team.

Chayka, the GM of the Arizonea Coyotes, essentially turns 24 year old Max Domi, who just had a breakout 28 goal, 70 point season with Montreal, into 31 year old Phil Kessel

Tanner's verdict: Great move, Chayka is the best GM in the NHL, Kessel is a great player.

Ron Hextall when he was the GM of the Flyers, did not do a complete breakdown and did not trade Giroux or Voracek

Tanner's verdict: Hextall is a bad GM because both players are past their prime, and you don't want players signed to those contracts when they're 31-34 years of age. Giroux is no longer a top player in the league.
- MJL

BTW, I agree with all of what you say here. I think Hextall deserves another chance. He did some nice things with the Flyers, and has some flaws. He will probably learn from those flaws and get better in the future. Minnesota needs someone like him, they are in really bad shape right now. Kinda weird he might be sorta following Clarke's footsteps in a GM career. I wonder if Hextall, like Clarke will also guide them to a final.

Having talent on the bottom 6 is sorta the GMs job. Getting at least serviceable bottom guys are like a dime a dozen.

We both agree that GMs need to make as many picks as possible, but that's even more reason that they should have traded Giroux or Voracek from the start. Not only could they have gotten top picks/prospects for them, they probably could have gotten a young good roster player too. The Richards and Carter trades are perfect blueprints for this.

I myself admitted Filpulla was an underrated acquisition. I actually said on the Rangers board he wouldn't be a bad option until Chytil was ready a couple months ago.

The problem I have is the Flyers goal was to remain competitive while retooling. I know the term competitive is a subjective claim, but I don't really consider losing in the first round where you were heavy underdogs as a "competitive" season. I might give you a pass on the 16-17 season because you finished solidly third in the division and fought the Pens pretty hard, but one out of several years isn't making the grade. It's why I don't support when teams just "retool" very often. If you want to blow it up, blow it up.
- 2sticks1puck

You're arguing semantics and about what a competitive season is. Finishing 3rd in a tough Metro division and making the playoffs is a competitive season. The Flyers were not going to do a complete tear down. End of story. Giroux and Voracek are still very good players and there is no reason why they won't be a part of a very bright future for the Flyers. Trading Giroux is a non starter and a bad idea. Hextall was not going to bug up the cap by overpaying for veteran bottom 6 players in free agency. The Flyers biggest issue last season was goaltending due to injuries. Hextall made a mistake relying on glass Neuvirth as the backup and it cost them dearly.
I personally would not support my team tanking. Rangers made some big moves but on paper their roster is not better than the Flyers in my opinion. Building up the farm system and the young player base first, then identify weaknesses when the team is on the cusp and use assets to fill holes. The timing is very, very important.

You're arguing semantics and about what a competitive season is. The Flyers were not going to do a complete tear down. End of story. Giroux and Voracek are still very good players and there is no reason why they won't be a part of a very bright future for the Flyers. Trading Giroux is a non starter and a bad idea. Hextall was not going to bug up the cap by overpaying for veteran bottom 6 players in free agency. The Flyers biggest issue last season was goaltending due to injuries. Hextall made a mistake relying on glass Neuvirth as the backup and it cost them dearly.
I personally would not support my team tanking. Rangers made some big moves but on paper their roster is not better than the Flyers in my opinion. Building up the farm system and the young player base first, then identify weaknesses when the team is on the cusp and use assets to fill holes. The timing is very, very important.
- MJL

Yes it is. What in your opinion is the timing then? It's very important to line up with when you want to contend. It's very possible that Giroux and Voracek will still be very good players in 2-3 years. However, on average studies have shown that peak NHL performance starts dropping off at 27 or 28. It doesn't mean that they will fall off a cliff. I think both might age better than normal because they aren't power forwards in the same sense a Wayne Simmonds was.

I don't support team tanking like the Senators and Penguins have done, but there is a real value in bottoming out. Just making good player for prospect trades helps enough. I'll make no bones about it, we got extremely lucky with Kakko. I do think there is a value in ripping off the bandaid to make the healing go quicker. People forget that before the Lightning were the Lightning, they were really bad for a couple years. Being bad enabled them to get Stamkos and Hedman. On the Rangers board I made a post one time about the cap era champions. Every single cup champion so far has had a top 5 pick on it's roster. Most of them have had multiple ones. It's better to be really bad for a couple years than mediocre. It's not basketball levels, but when you think of who's been really good over the long haul, it's been HoF level players and often more than one driving the team. There are plenty of exceptions, but you usually don't get those guys picking mid-late 1st round.

No matter whose roster is better, the division is better with both of us good.

You and the UFC guy are so obsessed with me that you have no credibility. If I was extremely hot and in extreme pain and you told me I was on fire, I still wouldn't believe you.
- James_Tanner

Yup, that pretty much sums it up right there. In Tanner's world, facts don't matter. Like I said before, there's a difference between ignorance and stupidity. You happen to have the elite combination of both.

You still haven't answered my question.

Yes it is. What in your opinion is the timing then? It's very important to line up with when you want to contend. It's very possible that Giroux and Voracek will still be very good players in 2-3 years. However, on average studies have shown that peak NHL performance starts dropping off at 27 or 28. It doesn't mean that they will fall off a cliff. I think both might age better than normal because they aren't power forwards in the same sense a Wayne Simmonds was.


- 2sticks1puck

The timing refers to when a GM should start using future assets to add to the team in a win now mode. When they should start moving younger players, picks and or prospects for more established better current players as well as tapping into cap space. If you do it too early in the process, you may wind up using assets in a spot that was filled with a younger player. Best way to be patient with a team's development. The holes you have today may not be the same you have in a year or two when the team is ready to push for contention.
Giroux is 31 and just put up back to back seasons of 102 and 85 points.

I don't support team tanking like the Senators and Penguins have done, but there is a real value in bottoming out. Just making good player for prospect trades helps enough. I'll make no bones about it, we got extremely lucky with Kakko. I do think there is a value in ripping off the bandaid to make the healing go quicker. People forget that before the Lightning were the Lightning, they were really bad for a couple years. Being bad enabled them to get Stamkos and Hedman. On the Rangers board I made a post one time about the cap era champions. Every single cup champion so far has had a top 5 pick on it's roster. Most of them have had multiple ones. It's better to be really bad for a couple years than mediocre. It's not basketball levels, but when you think of who's been really good over the long haul, it's been HoF level players and often more than one driving the team. There are plenty of exceptions, but you usually don't get those guys picking mid-late 1st round.

No matter whose roster is better, the division is better with both of us good.
- 2sticks1puck

We got really lucky in the lottery to get the 2nd pick. Unfortunately, Patrick has been slower to develop than hoped.

I think trading up in the draft is one of the single dumbest things a GM can do.
- James_Tanner

nice of you to make such a strong blanket statement and not back it up in any way whatsoever

The only blogger that interacts with the fans...

Love this.

Most bloggers are happy to spew crap and then watch the indigent masses huff the jenkum. Very few are willing to huff the crap with us. They are the Outback Steakhouse to our Waffle House majority of bloggers on here. Good on James.
- ChrisMS

James doesn’t get enough credit for this. I don’t think most bloggers even read the comments.

nice of you to make such a strong blanket statement and not back it up in any way whatsoever
- Coburns_Nose

i'll help tanner out in on this. your welcome, jimmy

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=77784

i'll help tanner out in on this. your welcome, jimmy

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=77784
- Tumbleweed

You can't make it up. It's unbelievable!

So why do you think he has sunk to this level? This is a site where some decent writers try to use it as a springboard to landing a legit writing job. Why would Meltzer show up here when he knows this site is mocked by the mainstream media.
- shack67

Do you even know that some of the former writers on HB are now on some of the more mainstream sports news?

Tyler Yost started here
Eric Engels started here.

And those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

You can't make it up. It's unbelievable!
- MJL

He's a moron. HB version of skip bayless

James doesn’t get enough credit for this. I don’t think most bloggers even read the comments.
- shack67

James deserves credit for being a complete and utter arse to almost everyone who disagrees with him?

Makes total sense.

I think he deserves a participation ribbon

He's a moron. HB version of skip bayless
- Yeah Boyes

If you want to argue/debate/discuss with James that's fine, but keep the insults out of it please.

If you want to argue/debate/discuss with James that's fine, but keep the insults out of it please.
- braidan

seriously?

seriously?
- rrentz

I'm pretty sure you can make your point about his opinion without insulting him.