So what you are saying is that Eichel, Dahlin, Reinhart, Mitts, Olofsson, Cozens have already peaked ? We might not have the best prospect pool (due to Dahlin and Mitts already seeing NHL action) but if you are looking at every team’s roster in terms of U23 talent where would we rank ? I’d say we’d be in the discussion for #1 with Toronto and Edmonton (McDavid factor).
- Swedish_Jesus

Every team in the league has young players that will get better. The club was ranked 26th and the farm system is 18th or 19th. All those guys fall into one category or the other.

You think Austin Matthews isn't going to improve? Kerfoot? Nylander? How exactly am I catching the leafs? That's the goal still right? To be better than all the other teams?

Forget the leafs. Florida and Montreal both were better than us, and both have top half ranked farm systems. And Montreal's pick from the Dahlin draft? He is playing too How do I catch Montreal if my club is worse, I have no cap space, and my prospects are worse?

You mean a 1st and 2nd instead of 2 1sts and a 2nd?
- Stripes77

My bad, I read that backwards. You're right

My bad, I read that backwards. You're right
- jcragcrumple

I mean both GMs TM and JB had to put together a team that didn't suck anymore

Both rosters they inherited were bad real bad

I don't mind the fact that they both traded picks away to get better

The problem is Murray traded for the wrong players and a 1st rounder for a goalie which we all know what happened there (the jury is still out on Botts but the Skinner trade looks like a huge win)

Then Murray drafted god awful

Botts has yet to be seen how good or bad his drafting is.

I mean both GMs TM and JB had to put together a team that didn't suck anymore

Both rosters they inherited were bad real bad

I don't mind the fact that they both traded picks away to get better

The problem is Murray traded for the wrong players and a 1st rounder for a goalie which we all know what happened there (the jury is still out on Botts but the Skinner trade looks like a huge win)

Then Murray drafted god awful

Botts has yet to be seen how good or bad his drafting is.
- Stripes77

i think this is key.. hell he even missed on a 1st rounder..

but yes jury is still out on JB on drafting

Yeah, it was a first and a second instead of a first and two seconds.

Hell, I wanted him to trade the other first because I am so sick of sucking. I probably would have traded the Cozens pick if someone were dumb enough to let me near an NHL team.

I just think the time to blame Murray is over, and the time to expect results from Botterill is here.
- jcragcrumple

I completely agree. He has positioned himself to have a TON of cap next year and a good number of positions available to fill with new players, emerging players or resigns. Maybe this was part of the plan all along, maybe not, that's between he and ownership. If we are GAWD awful this year his job should seriously come into question. But again, based on stats, analytics and tempered expectations of young players getting better (NOT FEELINGS? as someone suggested) it doesn't seem likely.

I mean both GMs TM and JB had to put together a team that didn't suck anymore

Both rosters they inherited were bad real bad

I don't mind the fact that they both traded picks away to get better

The problem is Murray traded for the wrong players and a 1st rounder for a goalie which we all know what happened there (the jury is still out on Botts but the Skinner trade looks like a huge win)

Then Murray drafted god awful

Botts has yet to be seen how good or bad his drafting is.
- Stripes77

I don't either. But JB has expended a fair amount of draft capital to assemble a roster. I just want to see that roster perform

That's it and that's all

Just win, baby

I don't either. But JB has expended a fair amount of draft capital to assemble a roster. I just want to see that roster perform

That's it and that's all

Just win, baby
- jcragcrumple

Other than Montour who is a RFA after next season the 2nd and 3rd round picks shouldn't set the team back as long as those players perform better than who they are supposed to replace

We know Skinner most certainly did at least last season

Miller and Vesey better be good (at their role)

Let's take this one a step further. I'm going to do everyone a service and not go beyond 2009. This team deserves to be outed for drafting ineptitude since 2002, but I'm just not gonna. If I went all the way to 2003, every single team would have a full time player from the draft depths except for Buffalo.

Impact Players beyond the 1st round, 2009-2016. These are guys who are on full time NHLers putting up over 40 points at a full season's pace, are top 3 defenders or starting goalies. Of course, there's time for the 13 and up classes to round out:

ANA: John Gibson, William Karlsson, Josh Manson, Frederik Andersen(redraft), Brandon Montour, Ondrej Kase, Sami Vatanen,
ARI: Christian Dvorak,
BOS: Danton Heinen, Brandon Carlo,
BUF:
CGY: Micheal Ferland, Johnny Gaudreau,
CAR: Justin Faulk, Frederik Andersen, Jaccob Slavin, Brett Pesce, Sebastian Aho, Brian Dumoulin,
CHI: Brandon Saad, Vince Hinostroza, Alex DeBrincat,
COL: Will Butcher, Ryan O'Reilly, Tyson Barrie,
CBL: Boone Jenner, Josh Anderson, David Savard,
DAL: John Klingberg, Esa Lindell, Remi Elie,
DET: Andreas Athanasiou, Tomas Tatar,
EDM: Erik Gustafsson,
FLA: Joonas Donskoi, Vincent Trocheck,
LA: Tyler Toffoli, Colin Miller, Erik Cernak,
MIN: Jason Zucker, Erik Haula,
MTL:
NSH: Jimmy Vesey, Viktor Arvidsson, Craig Smith, Mattias Ekholm,
NJ: Damon Severson, Alexander Kerfoot, Jesper Bratt,
NYI: Anders Lee,
NYR: Pavel Buchnevich,
OTT: Mark Stone, Ryan Dzingel, Jakob Silfverberg, Robin Lehner, Mike Hoffman,
PHI: Shayne Gostisbehere,
PIT: Bryan Rust, Matt Murray, Jake Guentzel,
SJ: Kevin Labanc,
STL: Jordan Binnington, Colton Parayko,
TBL: Nikita Kucherov, Ondrej Palat, Brayden Point, Anthony Cirelli,
TOR: Andreas Johnsson, Travis Dermott,
VAN: Thatcher Demko,
VGK: Exempt
WAS: Philipp Grubauer, Dmitry Orlov,
WPG/ATL: Connor Hellebuyck,

Drafting is one aspect. Proper player development is another aspect. Sabres have sucked at both.

Lack of consistency within the coaching/gm staff has hurt development. Another hindrance to development is fact that the team has sucked. Every year players seem to be playing before they should be. Botts has changed that problem and is allowing players to develop. In the long run that is good for this organization.






Also, I think I'm gonna love Kreuger

It's still happening

Botterill:

11 picks traded, 7 acquired

http://www.nhltradetracke...by_GM/Jason_Botterill/290

GMTM:

11 traded, 9 acquired


http://www.nhltradetracke...st_by_GM/Tim_Murray/274/2

I don't really care about it, as long as the results are there at the NHL level.

That's what this year is about for me.

I just want people to acknowledge that JB has in fact "rushed the rebuild" to some extent. The narrative that he has patience just isn't true imo.

Let's see if his moves pay off

Those trade numbers don't reflect anything regarding trading up or out at the draft
- jcragcrumple

This means absolutely nothing. What matters is, what was the return, and how does that affect both the short and long term future of this franchise.

And, rushing the rebuild? There is no rebuild anymore. This team should have enough talent to not blow ass. This roster needs to be flushed of undesirable contracts and replaced with AHL, traded and limited free agency talent. If you look at the cap page for the Sabres, you'll notice that a bunch of the contracts obtained since Botterill was here are coincidentally ending in 2020.

Botterill traded 1 first and two 2nds this year

The 1st and 2nd were in the same draft

There are parallels

That doesn't mean the results have to be the same. But the parallels are there if you want to look
- jcragcrumple

Yes, Botterill and Murray were both GMs. That's a parallel.

They both traded 1st round picks. That's another parallel.

Jason traded one 1st round pick. For an RFA, long term defenseman.

Tim Murray traded two 1st round picks for a 3 year, questionable UFA and an unproven goalie.

It doesn't matter what assets are traded. The only thing that matters in this realm is what was the return.

I will never argue against being skeptical against Botterill. It's absolutely fair.

But some of the opinions against him seem so misguided and vague.

"He owns 100% of this roster, both NHL and AHL"

"He's rushing the rebuild"

"He trades too many picks"

All of these statements and substatements need so much explanation to make them situationally fair

Every team in the league has young players that will get better. The club was ranked 26th and the farm system is 18th or 19th. All those guys fall into one category or the other.

You think Austin Matthews isn't going to improve? Kerfoot? Nylander? How exactly am I catching the leafs? That's the goal still right? To be better than all the other teams?

Forget the leafs. Florida and Montreal both were better than us, and both have top half ranked farm systems. And Montreal's pick from the Dahlin draft? He is playing too How do I catch Montreal if my club is worse, I have no cap space, and my prospects are worse?
- matty12345

We need to hope our goaltending improves, coaching has an impact on our team play, our U23 players take strides in their development, and that our depth additions improve the secondary scoring of our team. The Buffalo Eichel’s were 1st place through the first 35 games of the season. If we get the Eichel line some secondary scoring and tighten it up defensively that’s how we catch up to the teams ahead of us.

Not the same damn draft though

Botterill is spreading them out throughout the years

Murray did it with 1 freaking draft

Why was the cupboard empty?

Crappy drafting and trading away multiple high picks in the same draft has a lot to do with it
- Stripes77

Darcy Regier prospect full-time graduates outside the 1st round, since 2010:

Jake McCabe, Linus Ullmark, JT Compher - 3 in 4 years.
Cal Petersen will eventually make this 4.


Tim Murray prospect full-time graduates outside the 1st round, since 2014:

Brendan Lemieux, Brendan Guhle - 2 in 3 years.
Victor Olofsson, Rasmus Asplund and Will Borgen will eventually make this 5.

It's too early to judge Jason Botterill's draft selections, as your 2nd round and later players typically take at the very least 2 years, if not 3-5.

Players tracking well are Davidsson, UPL, Laaksonen, Samuelsson and Pekar. Commenting on the 2019 draft class is pure speculation.

But if you want to see a hint as to why this team has been bad for so long, go find me an impact player that came to this org outside the 1st round since 2010.

Bumpy booboo

I will never argue against being skeptical against Botterill. It's absolutely fair.

But some of the opinions against him seem so misguided and vague.

"He owns 100% of this roster, both NHL and AHL"

"He's rushing the rebuild"

"He trades too many picks"

All of these statements and substatements need so much explanation to make them situationally fair
- TheSabresTaco

No one said he traded too many picks. We're just using stats to show he has traded more picks than he has acquired. Then we are using that fact to question the statement that he has somehow 'restocked' the farm system.

It's not even a criticism. I like most of what he has done. But now it is time to win. He traded away high picks to rebuild his NHL defense. He maxed out our cap for the year. Excuse time is over. Let's win some hockey games.

We need to hope our goaltending improves, coaching has an impact on our team play, our U23 players take strides in their development, and that our depth additions improve the secondary scoring of our team. The Buffalo Eichel’s were 1st place through the first 35 games of the season. If we get the Eichel line some secondary scoring and tighten it up defensively that’s how we catch up to the teams ahead of us.
- Swedish_Jesus

Yeah, kinda over the hope thing.

I want to go into a season expecting to be good instead of hoping for 4 different things to pan out my way.

Yeah, it was a first and a second instead of a first and two seconds.

Hell, I wanted him to trade the other first because I am so sick of sucking. I probably would have traded the Cozens pick if someone were dumb enough to let me near an NHL team.

I just think the time to blame Murray is over, and the time to expect results from Botterill is here.
- jcragcrumple

It takes years to shed a past GMs issues. Especially if they leave you several albatross contracts and an empty as (frank) cupboard. Sorry to say, but "years" isn't over yet. Next year, he can shed Bogosian, Scandella (traded here because of our incredible lack of depth for a 3rd liner and a failed top 6er), and continue to fill the forward prospect pool. In a few years, perhaps he's able to shed Okposo.

An issue that seems to always get glossed over is "why are we stuck with so and so", but the question should be, if we get rid of so and so for chocolate rabbit beans, who's coming up to fill in? Who's taking or sharing minutes? Does that make us a better team? Do we have the depth to support injuries if that callup is also injured?

This team has been bare for so (frank)ing long that holes needed to be plugged with living plugs.

Every team in the league has young players that will get better. The club was ranked 26th and the farm system is 18th or 19th. All those guys fall into one category or the other.

You think Austin Matthews isn't going to improve? Kerfoot? Nylander? How exactly am I catching the leafs? That's the goal still right? To be better than all the other teams?

Forget the leafs. Florida and Montreal both were better than us, and both have top half ranked farm systems. And Montreal's pick from the Dahlin draft? He is playing too How do I catch Montreal if my club is worse, I have no cap space, and my prospects are worse?
- matty12345

There are literally billions of ways to overcome the issues stated above. It's finding the right ones that let Jason Botterill keep his job.

Do we wait until the season starts before firing the gm or nah?

I will never argue against being skeptical against Botterill. It's absolutely fair.

But some of the opinions against him seem so misguided and vague.

"He owns 100% of this roster, both NHL and AHL"

"He's rushing the rebuild"

"He trades too many picks"

All of these statements and substatements need so much explanation to make them situationally fair
- TheSabresTaco

He trades more picks and prospects than people want to acknowledge. That's different than what you're saying

The narrative on Botterill is that he's patiently building. I've posted some numbers that I think show he's been fairly aggressive in dealing futures for currents. I have no problem with that, provided it works.

It's time for the rubber to meet the road. The results haven't been there. That's point-blank true. He does own the prospect pool after 3 drafts imo. He gets credit for the Amerks 100%

Is he done this off season? Has he done enough in the right areas, or did he over invest in some areas and neglect others? These are fair questions and arguments that will only be evidenced when the puck drops.

"Tim Murray sucked" and "no more excuses."

That's where I'm at

Other than Montour who is a RFA after next season the 2nd and 3rd round picks shouldn't set the team back as long as those players perform better than who they are supposed to replace

We know Skinner most certainly did at least last season

Miller and Vesey better be good (at their role)
- Stripes77

Considering the picks used to acquire them, there's like a 5% chance all 3 of those players see the NHL before 2023. Even one of them seeing the NHL in any role before 2023 is like 5-6%.

This is why I find it humorous that people get miffed for trading picks for players. Yeah, I guess you're losing draft currency, but I had no idea people wanted to wait at least another 3 years for a CHANCE these players will be half decent.

1st round picks, especially top 20, is a bit of a different conversation.

No one said he traded too many picks. We're just using stats to show he has traded more picks than he has acquired. Then we are using that fact to question the statement that he has somehow 'restocked' the farm system.

It's not even a criticism. I like most of what he has done. But now it is time to win. He traded away high picks to rebuild his NHL defense. He maxed out our cap for the year. Excuse time is over. Let's win some hockey games.
- matty12345

False.

Also, if you look at the systems from the past 3 years, you'll notice that today's system is exponentially more balanced than it was say, 2-3 years ago. And more.

He used a failing 1st round prospect for an actually good 1st round player.

He used 1 pick for a top 4 RFA puck mover.

He manipulated the cap for this team for a bundle of money to fall off after this season. Even after a bunch of re-signings (without any forseeable trades), he's looking at approx 10M of cap space.

He didn't go bonkers and fill our long term cap with a bunch of middle 6ers.

I mean both GMs TM and JB had to put together a team that didn't suck anymore

Both rosters they inherited were bad real bad

I don't mind the fact that they both traded picks away to get better

The problem is Murray traded for the wrong players and a 1st rounder for a goalie which we all know what happened there (the jury is still out on Botts but the Skinner trade looks like a huge win)

Then Murray drafted god awful

Botts has yet to be seen how good or bad his drafting is.
- Stripes77

It could be argued the organization was such a mess these prospects didn’t have a chance.

Wasn’t TM known for quality drafting?

Do we wait until the season starts before firing the gm or nah?
- jochfr

(frank) you dude, we fire him NOW. He needs to pay the PRICE

He trades more picks and prospects than people want to acknowledge. That's different than what you're saying

The narrative on Botterill is that he's patiently building. I've posted some numbers that I think show he's been fairly aggressive in dealing futures for currents. I have no problem with that, provided it works.

It's time for the rubber to meet the road. The results haven't been there. That's point-blank true. He does own the prospect pool after 3 drafts imo. He gets credit for the Amerks 100%

Is he done this off season? Has he done enough in the right areas, or did he over invest in some areas and neglect others? These are fair questions and arguments that will only be evidenced when the puck drops.

"Tim Murray sucked" and "no more excuses."

That's where I'm at
- jcragcrumple

I mean the facts are right there. All of us here know exactly what picks he's used. And most are more than ok with it, considering the age of this team as a whole and how close we should be to actually being a hockey team.

He absolutely owns Rochester. All I'm saying is that Rochester is not 'complete', if you will. He can sign all the free agents he wants for them and make them perrenial playoff contenders. But he still needs more successful drafts to really balance out the pipeline so that we can all look at any position and say, great, we have a guy we can call up if any one of the Sabres get injured.

I agree with the last paragraph. The skepticism is 100% warranted.