Yep Burke was brutal in Toronto, and anyone who argues against that needs to give their head a shake.

Of course Max is one to defend him, no surprise there.

Yep Burke was brutal in Toronto, and anyone who argues against that needs to give their head a shake.

Of course Max is one to defend him, no surprise there.
- LeafGuy89

He drafted Rielly.

I'll give him that.

Are you on franking crack cocaine?

You know what's insulting to a fanbase? Not being in even the franking finals since 1967.

It's insulting to continuously sacrifice the future by trading for middling middle-aged former stars, knowing you will never actually reach the finals.

Jeezuz.
- Atomic Wedgie

I think any fan base is open to a rebuild if it's necessary, if the front office clearly conveys what they are doing, and they then stick to it. I loved what the NYR did with sending out a letter to their season ticket holders. I'd respect the hell out of that and it's better to move on and rebuild than kick the can down the road.

this is great news, I would stick my wallet in the pump handle to keep the gas flowing

https://www.ctvnews.ca/ca...Anthem&utm_source=twitter
- senstroll

Thank (frank)ing god ....

Frank that.

He could have had the same draft picks available - but like every other Leafs GM since 1991, he sacrificed the future to pump up the present.

And like every other GM since 1991, he was unsuccessful.

Trading for Kessel was pure vanity by Burke. He could have been patient (like Shanny) and built it slowly but surely, but instead he traded away two firsts and a second to get a winger to play with Matt Franking Stajan.

And the worst part was Cammaleri actually went down to 40 Bay Street on July 1st - I literally mean it - he went there in person and tried to work out a contract. Burke told him to go frank himself.

Think about how it would have been different if we had Cammi at centre. We wouldn't have handed over Tyler Seguin to the Bruins.

Frank Burke.
- Atomic Wedgie

i can understand your point of view.
i am not sure however that the ownership at time of Burke's tenure had the same patience as current ownership though.
i thought leafs should have signed cammaleri as well - never understood why burke didn't want to..
his tenure with leafs was mediocre, but personally i don't think the idea behind the kessel trade was bad (apart from the fact that offersheetign would have been cheaper..)
(i actually think the worst thing burke did was give wilson a christmas contract extension - 2-3 months before wilson was fired..).

I think any fan base is open to a rebuild if it's necessary, if the front office clearly conveys what they are doing, and they then stick to it. I loved what the NYR did with sending out a letter to their season ticket holders. I'd respect the hell out of that and it's better to move on and rebuild than kick the can down the road.
- RickJames77

One day I'm going to write a book that destroys the 100 most prevalent myths about the Toronto Maple Leafs.

My favourite of course was that MLSEL doesn't care about winning - they only care about money. This was true while Ballard was owner, but he died in 1991. Since then, the problem with MLSEL is that they want to win too much, not too little.

But my second favourite is that the Leafs could never undertake a proper "burn it to the foundations and rebuild properly" because the fan base would never stand for it.

Like, WTF?

The team was franking horrible - like, absolutely franking horrible - through the entire 1970s and 80s. Yet the building sold out each and every night. The waiting list for season tickets was literally over 100 years long.

We went through 8 franking years without making the playoffs. We haven't won a playoff series since 2004.

But the fan base wouldn't tolerate a rebuilding process?

Jeepers, Mary and Joseph.

Are you on franking crack cocaine?

You know what's insulting to a fanbase? Not being in even the franking finals since 1967.

It's insulting to continuously sacrifice the future by trading for middling middle-aged former stars, knowing you will never actually reach the finals.

Jeezuz.
- Atomic Wedgie

no guarantees that the current management will take leafs to the finals either..

no guarantees that the current management will take leafs to the finals either..
- MaximusAurelius

Wow, critical point for Max. How will Wedgie recover? ...

One day I'm going to write a book that destroys the 100 most prevalent myths about the Toronto Maple Leafs.

My favourite of course was that MLSEL doesn't care about winning - they only care about money. This was true while Ballard was owner, but he died in 1991. Since then, the problem with MLSEL is that they want to win too much, not too little.

But my second favourite is that the Leafs could never undertake a proper "burn it to the foundations and rebuild properly" because the fan base would never stand for it.

Like, WTF?

The team was franking horrible - like, absolutely franking horrible - through the entire 1970s and 80s. Yet the building sold out each and every night. The waiting list for season tickets was literally over 100 years long.

We went through 8 franking years without making the playoffs. We haven't won a playoff series since 2004.

But the fan base wouldn't tolerate a rebuilding process?

Jeepers, Mary and Joseph.
- Atomic Wedgie

you can make a point that fans were as much entertained in the bad team years as during the good team years; fans keep turning up for games (and watchign games on tv) anyways.
winning is not a prerequisite for being entertained.

you can make a point that fans were as much entertained in the bad team years as during the good team years; fans keep turning up for games (and watchign games on tv) anyways.
winning is not a prerequisite for being entertained.
- MaximusAurelius

Just stop man.

What the (frank) are you even trying to say. Stop picking opinions out of a hat and sticking with them for no good reason. It’s getting old as (frank).

you can make a point that fans were as much entertained in the bad team years as during the good team years; fans keep turning up for games (and watchign games on tv) anyways.
winning is not a prerequisite for being entertained.
- MaximusAurelius

Good team years, apart from the run they had when Wendel was here... not many good team years in last 52....

One day I'm going to write a book that destroys the 100 most prevalent myths about the Toronto Maple Leafs.

My favourite of course was that MLSEL doesn't care about winning - they only care about money. This was true while Ballard was owner, but he died in 1991. Since then, the problem with MLSEL is that they want to win too much, not too little.

But my second favourite is that the Leafs could never undertake a proper "burn it to the foundations and rebuild properly" because the fan base would never stand for it.

Like, WTF?

The team was franking horrible - like, absolutely franking horrible - through the entire 1970s and 80s. Yet the building sold out each and every night. The waiting list for season tickets was literally over 100 years long.

We went through 8 franking years without making the playoffs. We haven't won a playoff series since 2004.

But the fan base wouldn't tolerate a rebuilding process?

Jeepers, Mary and Joseph.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yeah that about sums it up. Was it bad drafting mixed with accelerating the rebuild too quickly? That's about all I remember in my hockey watching days when it comes to the Leafs front office moves. I don't know anything about the 90s or 80s though.

IIRC there were a lot of trades for aging vets too

Just stop man.

What the (frank) are you even trying to say. Stop picking opinions out of a hat and sticking with them for no good reason. It’s getting old as (frank).
- Santo_44

We will get reamed now for picking on Max...

you can make a point that fans were as much entertained in the bad team years as during the good team years; fans keep turning up for games (and watchign games on tv) anyways.
winning is not a prerequisite for being entertained.
- MaximusAurelius

OK, let's just go with your bizarre statement here.

Let's just pretend that watching a losing team is just as entertaining as watching a winning team.

Let's quantify that enjoyment. Let's give each game watched an arbitrary unit of one Ballard.

So according to your system, at the end of the year, a Leafs fan would have experienced 80-84 Ballard units of pleasure (as the number games per season has changed over the years).

Whether the team was good or bad, 80-84 Ballards. Winning doesn't matter.

But wait! A winning team would also play playoff games, extending the number of Ballards from anywhere between 4 and 28.

Fans of winning teams would always experience more Ballards, Max.

QED

OK, let's just go with your bizarre statement here.

Let's just pretend that watching a losing team is just as entertaining as watching a winning team.

Let's quantify that enjoyment. Let's give each game watched an arbitrary unit of one Ballard.

So according to your system, at the end of the year, a Leafs fan would have experienced 80-84 Ballard units of pleasure (as the number games per season has changed over the years).

Whether the team was good or bad, 80-84 Ballards. Winning doesn't matter.

But wait! A winning team would also play playoff games, extending the number of Ballards from anywhere between 4 and 28.

Fans of winning teams would always experience more Ballards, Max.

QED
- Atomic Wedgie

This gets an lololol

OK, let's just go with your bizarre statement here.

Let's just pretend that watching a losing team is just as entertaining as watching a winning team.

Let's quantify that enjoyment. Let's give each game watched an arbitrary unit of one Ballard.

So according to your system, at the end of the year, a Leafs fan would have experienced 80-84 Ballard units of pleasure (as the number games per season has changed over the years).

Whether the team was good or bad, 80-84 Ballards. Winning doesn't matter.

But wait! A winning team would also play playoff games, extending the number of Ballards from anywhere between 4 and 28.

Fans of winning teams would always experience more Ballards, Max.

QED
- Atomic Wedgie

I'm much more entertained by the Leafs now than at any other point in my brief life.

Richard cheese

OK, let's just go with your bizarre statement here.

Let's just pretend that watching a losing team is just as entertaining as watching a winning team.

Let's quantify that enjoyment. Let's give each game watched an arbitrary unit of one Ballard.

So according to your system, at the end of the year, a Leafs fan would have experienced 80-84 Ballard units of pleasure (as the number games per season has changed over the years).

Whether the team was good or bad, 80-84 Ballards. Winning doesn't matter.

But wait! A winning team would also play playoff games, extending the number of Ballards from anywhere between 4 and 28.

Fans of winning teams would always experience more Ballards, Max.

QED
- Atomic Wedgie

like hockey is the only source for entertainment for people.
you said yourself fans keep on coming to leafs' games.
of course every leafs fan would love to see the team win a few Stanley Cups.
But it's not like a lot of fans would stop following the Leafs when team is doing really bad - I've got proof for my statement with Leafs' track record of last 50 years.

Yeah that about sums it up. Was it bad drafting mixed with accelerating the rebuild too quickly? That's about all I remember in my hockey watching days when it comes to the Leafs front office moves. I don't know anything about the 90s or 80s though.

IIRC there were a lot of trades for aging vets too
- RickJames77

The Leafs' last 50 years can be divided into two distinct eras:

The Ballard Years (1968-1991). He truly didn't give a poop about winning.



He's the worst owner in the world history of professional sports. Worse than Marge Schott. He was franking horrible.

He hated any player who the fans loved - it was a weird ego thing (except for Salming, despite the fact that he franking hated all Europeans). He used the Leafs' revenues like a private slush fund (and went to jail for it). He traded Lanny McDonald out of spite - because he tried to trade Sittler, but Sittler had a NTC, so he traded Sittler's best friend. He fired Roger Nielson, then rehired him, then asked him to wear a paper bag to the bench and take it off to reveal he was the coach again. I could go on and on and on and on.

Next era: 1991-the dawn of the Shanny plan. The myth of "they don't want to win" lives on, despite the fact that the exact opposite was true: they wanted to win too much. Always trading away picks and prospects for aging veterans. They were always top of the salary heap, and they were always falling short. And after they would fall short, the vets would go away, and guess what? No young kids were there to replace them.

Owen Nolan. Phil Housley. Brian Leech. Tom Barrasso. Ron Francis. Gary Roberts. Joe Niewendyk. Once again, I could go on and on and on and on.

Now we are finally doing it properly - or at least I thought. We've once again traded away our last two first rounders. It's not a good sign.

Rinse. Repeat.

like hockey is the only source for entertainment for people.
you said yourself fans keep on coming to leafs' games.
of course every leafs fan would love to see the team win a few Stanley Cups.
But it's not like a lot of fans would stop following the Leafs when team is doing really bad - I've got proof for my statement with Leafs' track record of last 50 years.
- MaximusAurelius

To be fair you said people got equal enjoyment out of the Leafs in both bad and good season and seeing as this is a hockey discussion, I don't really know where other sources of enjoyment becomes relevant in this conversation.

like hockey is the only source for entertainment for people.
you said yourself fans keep on coming to leafs' games.
of course every leafs fan would love to see the team win a few Stanley Cups.
But it's not like a lot of fans would stop following the Leafs when team is doing really bad - I've got proof for my statement with Leafs' track record of last 50 years.
- MaximusAurelius

52 years

like hockey is the only source for entertainment for people.
you said yourself fans keep on coming to leafs' games.
of course every leafs fan would love to see the team win a few Stanley Cups.
But it's not like a lot of fans would stop following the Leafs when team is doing really bad - I've got proof for my statement with Leafs' track record of last 50 years.
- MaximusAurelius

You've lost the point of this argument.

You stated that it would have been insulting to fans for the Leafs to do a proper rebuild.

Not winning a playoff series since 2004 is much more insulting.

The Leafs' last 50 years can be divided into two distinct eras:

The Ballard Years (1968-1991). He truly didn't give a poop about winning.



He's the worst owner in the world history of professional sports. Worse than Marge Schott. He was franking horrible.

He hated any player who the fans loved - it was a weird ego thing (except for Salming, despite the fact that he franking hated all Europeans). He used the Leafs' revenues like a private slush fund (and went to jail for it). He traded Lanny McDonald out of spite - because he tried to trade Sittler, but Sittler had a NTC, so he traded Sittler's best friend. He fired Roger Nielson, then rehired him, then asked him to wear a paper bag to the bench and take it off to reveal he was the coach again. I could go on and on and on and on.

Next era: 1991-the dawn of the Shanny plan. The myth of "they don't want to win" lives on, despite the fact that the exact opposite was true: they wanted to win too much. Always trading away picks and prospects for aging veterans. They were always top of the salary heap, and they were always falling short. And after they would fall short, the vets would go away, and guess what? No young kids were there to replace them.

Owen Nolan. Phil Housley. Brian Leech. Tom Barrasso. Ron Francis. Gary Roberts. Joe Niewendyk. Once again, I could go on and on and on and on.

Now we are finally doing it properly - or at least I thought. We've once again traded away our last two first rounders. It's not a good sign.

Rinse. Repeat.
- Atomic Wedgie

That quote! Holy hell

That quote! Holy hell
- RickJames77

It's pretty great.

Richard cheese
- AdamFrench

i got some fromunda for your omelette this morning if you need it.