We only have 7 million in cap space, that's the problem.
- Saskabush

I get that but Chucky is not going to sign for 5 because thats all the cap space we have.
Many teams are in the same boat as us and for this reason players like Frolik will be available for pennies on the dollar or possibly the waiver wire for nothing.

The idea of Lindholm moving to centre is purely because Backlund has proven he is no defensive specialist, especially when it comes to handling elite centres like MacKinnon, which you will see 90% of the time in the playoffs. THAT is why the idea of Lindholm (or Kadri) at centre is even a thought...they have a shot at doing it. If Backlund could handle other teams' elites, you wouldn't even think about breaking up the top line. The combos of Monahan/Gaudreau and Lindholm/Tkachuk is the appeal if it works. Backlund as your third centre instead of your second makes by blood pressure go down just talking about it...
- sideshow03

I don't know that the term "defensive specialist" applies to any centres in the NHL anymore, and would argue that that specialty went away when Craig MacTavish retired in 1997... There are players that are more adept, and I think Backs is still in that category, but he's not at the elite level like Bergeron or O'Reilly.

Kadri is not a defensive specialist either, and I think Lindholm's value is higher on the 1st line in a supporting capacity than it would be as a C down the lineup. He covers a lot of gaps in Mony/Johnny's game and can still rip. IMO, Kadri and Backlund are basically the same player.

Also, typically in the mantra of a shutdown guy, you'd look at that as your 3C anyways. Faceoff winner and a line that can shadow players. To me, that's Derek Ryan through and through. I'd be more supporting of leaving Backs where he is and having a fast, defensively minded 3rd line with Ryan, Mangy and Frolik (if he's still here on October 3).

Tkachuk landing in the middle of Aho (8.45 x 5) and Provorov (6.75 x 6) would be 7.6 per. Get the damn contract signed already!
- DEDDIE

One could argue Aho got less than he's worth, too.

One could argue Aho got less than he's worth, too.
- BINGO!

Sure but one could argue any number of UFA'S got more than they were worth too.
James Neil and Milan Lucic come to mind.

I think the delay on signing Tkachuk & Mangiapane is coming from the Flames, not the players. BT needs to do something to create cap-space, it isn't the players fault that the team hasn't had any cap space all off season
- Saskabush

Mangiapane should have signed he QO and should be in camp...the guy had 13 points last season and is holding out. Let that sink in

Prove something and you will get a better deal, right now he is risking is career on bad advice from his agent.

DSP, Dube, ect. will happily take his spot

I get that but Chucky is not going to sign for 5 because thats all the cap space we have.
Many teams are in the same boat as us and for this reason players like Frolik will be available for pennies on the dollar or possibly the waiver wire for nothing.
- DEDDIE

So what do you want Chucky to do then? If they don't have the space they don't have the space

Sure but one could argue any number of UFA'S got more than they were worth too.
James Neil and Milan Lucic come to mind.
- DEDDIE

This is why you don't sign UFA's to big money deals. Lock up your young guys for as long as possible, then fill in with bargain options. Sell your young guys just before they hit 30, and replenish with the draft picks you receive from said trades.

Build a cycle of young talent and sell them for new stock when they're about to exit their prime. DO NOT spend money on middle or bottom tier talent, especially as UFA's.

So what do you want Chucky to do then? If they don't have the space they don't have the space
- Saskabush

I guess they have to make space or try to play without him, then.

Mangiapane should have signed he QO and should be in camp...the guy had 13 points last season and is holding out. Let that sink in

Prove something and you will get a better deal, right now he is risking is career on bad advice from his agent.

DSP, Dube, ect. will happily take his spot
- flashfire

Yeah Mangiapane is weird.

I have no idea what he's waiting for.

Mangiapane should have signed he QO and should be in camp...the guy had 13 points last season and is holding out. Let that sink in

Prove something and you will get a better deal, right now he is risking is career on bad advice from his agent.

DSP, Dube, ect. will happily take his spot
- flashfire

Only Mangiapane and the Flames know what the actual hold up is--there could be deals in place for both players but signing one guy leaves us vulnerable to an offer sheet on the other which would tank Frolik's trade value even more.

This smells like a business deal to me, don't think either player is asking for anything too unreasonable.

Eaves and Kesler out for the season. Sounds like a good spot for Frolik!

I guess they have to make space or try to play without him, then.
- BINGO!

Yep. If we had like 10 million in space I'd be pissed at Tkachuk and Mangi for "holding out", that's not the case so I ain't mad at them

Also, with the way Tkachuk plays I'd rather limit his pre-season games anyway. Don't need him getting injured by some AHL plug looking to make a name for himself.

Eaves and Kesler out for the season. Sounds like a good spot for Frolik!
- jessehub

He's a useful player on almost any NHL roster and he should have some trade value. Hopefully we can still bring back some decent pieces in a trade

Yep. If we had like 10 million in space I'd be pissed at Tkachuk and Mangi for "holding out", that's not the case so I ain't mad at them

Also, with the way Tkachuk plays I'd rather limit his pre-season games anyway. Don't need him getting injured by some AHL plug looking to make a name for himself.
- Saskabush

Yeah I don't think this is really a Tkachuk problem so much as a "Can't find a home for Frolik" problem.

Yep. If we had like 10 million in space I'd be pissed at Tkachuk and Mangi for "holding out", that's not the case so I ain't mad at them

Also, with the way Tkachuk plays I'd rather limit his pre-season games anyway. Don't need him getting injured by some AHL plug looking to make a name for himself.
- Saskabush

Mangi is a totally different conversation...on guy had 13 points and one guy had 77

Mangi should just sign his QO and bust his ass to make the (frank)ing team

Only Mangiapane and the Flames know what the actual hold up is--there could be deals in place for both players but signing one guy leaves us vulnerable to an offer sheet on the other which would tank Frolik's trade value even more.

This smells like a business deal to me, don't think either player is asking for anything too unreasonable.
- Saskabush

How does either player signing affect the offer sheet situation at all? They're no more or less vulnerable to an offer sheet than they are today or at the beginning of free agency. They'll match any offer Tkachuk gets and let Mangiapane go for anything over 1.5. Nothing changes if either of them sign.

Worst case scenario is they have to pay with picks to make some space, but they have a plan in place to get the space they need

Mangi is a totally different conversation...on guy had 13 points and one guy had 77

Mangi should just sign his QO and bust his ass to make the (frank)ing team
- flashfire

That's easy to say when it isn't your money, even 700k is a lot of money to be pissing away for someone who didn't come from money.

How does either player signing affect the offer sheet situation at all? They're no more or less vulnerable to an offer sheet than they are today or at the beginning of free agency. They'll match any offer Tkachuk gets and let Mangiapane go for anything over 1.5. Nothing changes if either of them sign.

Worst case scenario is they have to pay with picks to make some space, but they have a plan in place to get the space they need
- Hunkulese

...JFC

What part of "We have 7 million in cap space" don't you understand? We are relatively safe from an offer sheet right now (e.g to match the Aho offer we'd only have to clear 1.5 mill or so). But, if we sign Mangiapane for even 1.5, we would then have to clear at least 3 million in cap--something that has proven to be difficult thus far this off-season) --and no GM is going to give the Flames a break to help them sign Tkachuk.

I imagine they do have a plan in place if Tkachuk gets offered, but you do know that would involve us selling off assets for pennies on the dollar, right? How is that preferable to playing the waiting game with both players?

I'm hoping BT is just waiting for the pot to sweeten on a Frolik deal (injuries in training camp/preseason could help increase demand)

...JFC

What part of "We have 7 million in cap space" don't you understand? We are relatively safe from an offer sheet right now (e.g to match the Aho offer we'd only have to clear 1.5 mill or so). But, if we sign Mangiapane for even 1.5, we would then have to clear at least 3 million in cap--something that has proven to be difficult thus far this off-season) --and no GM is going to give the Flames a break to help them sign Tkachuk.

I imagine they do have a plan in place if Tkachuk gets offered, but you do know that would involve us selling off assets for pennies on the dollar, right? How is that preferable to playing the waiting game with both players?

I'm hoping BT is just waiting for the pot to sweeten on a Frolik deal (injuries in training camp/preseason could help increase demand)
- Saskabush

Youre panicking too much. With Valamaki's LTIR we have about 7.8 mill. If we sign Mangi to the reported ask of $850 & after the Marner signing & Chucky isnt in that ballpark, but lets say that number is 8.0mill. We can start with 21 0r 22 man roster & we're there. Not how we want to start the year but Brodie & Frolik are both options to get the space & get some cap breathing room. We are allowed to be 10% over the cap until Oct 2 or 3rd anyway.

What part of "We have 7 million in cap space" don't you understand?
- Saskabush

The part where they obviously have a plan and everyone knows that 7 million isn't going to get Tkachuk signed. If the Flames had been telling Tkachuk's agent that they couldn't go higher than the cap space they currently have, he would have been offer sheeted or demanded a trade by now.

The GMs in the league aren't all wieners looking to screw each other over. All they care about is making their own team better. The biggest obstacle unloading Frolik is his personal no-trade list and the Flames can't take any salary back. A Frolik + Jankowski package probably gets at least a few teams bidding and will bring back a couple of draft picks.

Well, Dubas just (frank)ed the league again.

Well, Dubas just (frank)ed the league again.
- rmull905

Pretty much. Tkachuk and Marner are cut from the same wanna get paid cloth, and I don't see how you make an argument that Tkachuk is worth anything under 9 million if Marner is worth 11.

Well, Dubas just (frank)ed the league again.
- rmull905

I dont know if Marners deal will have that much impact. If you go by just statistics, Marner has 22.9% more points than Tkachuk of offensive production. If you take 77.1% of Marners cap of $10.89mill you come in at like $8.39 mill.
Which Tre being a grinder can maybe get that down to 8.0 or slightly lower than 8.0.
Which is probably just about where that number should be based on Aho's number.

I dont know if Marners deal will have that much impact. If you go by just statistics, Marner has 22.9% more points than Tkachuk of offensive production. If you take 77.1% of Marners cap of $10.89mill you come in at like $8.39 mill.
Which Tre being a grinder can maybe get that down to 8.0 or slightly lower than 8.0.
Which is probably just about where that number should be based on Aho's number.
- Kevin R

Yeah I don't think Tkachuk's contract ever had anything to do with Marner, and I'm not sure that changes now. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if the Flames and Tkachuk have already agreed to a number and we're waiting on Tre to make some room.

No idea what the hold up is on Mangiapane, though. I heard they were 200k apart, so why not just split the difference and make a deal?

No need to panic yet. I can't see us having a Nylander situation with Tkachuk and there's room to be made to fit him in relatively easily.

Youre panicking too much. With Valamaki's LTIR we have about 7.8 mill. If we sign Mangi to the reported ask of $850 & after the Marner signing & Chucky isnt in that ballpark, but lets say that number is 8.0mill. We can start with 21 0r 22 man roster & we're there. Not how we want to start the year but Brodie & Frolik are both options to get the space & get some cap breathing room. We are allowed to be 10% over the cap until Oct 2 or 3rd anyway.
- Kevin R

I'm not 'panicking' at all . Cap friendly has us at 7 mill with Vali on IR (exchange Mang with Quine and we would still have 7 mill or less to sign Tkachuk). People want Tkachuk to sign, I get it, but he can't sign until BT does his god damn job and clears some space.

It's a waiting game, if we have to wait for the season to start before we clear space then so be it.