Have to be careful in assessing the overall situation.

Part of the problem is the dependence on analytics. If you ever get a chance to talk to a veteran scout you note the open disgust for the amateurs who have tried to sell a trailing statistical indicator as a predictor of outcomes.

You start to believe you can have a great rock band made up entirely of lead singers.
- spatso

Thank you Pierre. I miss your bald head on the main cast.

Thank you Pierre. I miss your bald head on the main cast.
- AdamFrench

I just hope the Leafs keep sending Hutchinson vs the Habs.

Seems like a great way to give up points to a division rival.

Having said that, I don't think saturday's loss is on him, at all.
- Scabeh

Well there is still one more game against the Habs that is a b2b, so you'll see him one more time unless Babs changes his strategy which is highly unlikely.

I get the feeling Dubas doesn't think players need, "protection", on the ice. He must feel they'll skate out of scenarios where they might get hit dirty, or the PP will scare the other team, until the PP dries up. The Canucks under AV did the same thing.

No pushback, just expect PP opportunities and to score on the PP. doesn't work against teams like Boston who play dirty and you don't get the PP, and when you do, they kill the penalty. So they play even dirtier and the refs feel they can't call something on them every shift. Eventually your team gets bruised and injured from all the stick work and slows down.

Then you die metaphorically.
- kaptaan

He thinks that their powerplay is their enforcer.

That is fine, if penalties were called according to the rules. This is the NHL. Penalties are not called that way, and the Leafs have every right to question the PP totals the last couple years.

They went through a stretch recently where they were like 4-18 (+ an OT penalty shot) over a 4-game stretch.

There is no way this is supportable by actual play, ESPECIALLY when you see Pastrnak literally smack Muzzin in the head with his stick, right where the play is, and somehow no call.

Thank you Pierre. I miss your bald head on the main cast.
- AdamFrench

He thinks that their powerplay is their enforcer.

That is fine, if penalties were called according to the rules. This is the NHL. Penalties are not called that way, and the Leafs have every right to question the PP totals the last couple years.

They went through a stretch recently where they were like 4-18 (+ an OT penalty shot) over a 4-game stretch.

There is no way this is supportable by actual play, ESPECIALLY when you see Pastrnak literally smack Muzzin in the head with his stick, right where the play is, and somehow no call.
- Aetherial

Or Domi's sucker punch on Kerfoot

Thank you Pierre. I miss your bald head on the main cast.
- AdamFrench

Just because he is bald does not mean he is wrong! There is obviously something missing. Can you give up this many goals and have any hope of being a serious contender?

For the record, I disagree that the Leafs need so much pushback.(a little would be nice).

What they need is some heart and guts.

It is not so long ago that Montreal gave Boston fits in the playoffs. The Habs would take the crap from Boston, but skate through it and continue to play the speed and skill game.

The Leafs are every bit as capable of doing that. The problem is that they fold as soon as they are pressured or get hit.

Hockey is a physical game. Fight through a little adversity once in a while.

Oh, and there is zero excuse any more for the slow starts. This has been going on for a long time and isn't getting better. That screams a lack of preparation, and caresi.

Just because he is bald does not mean he is wrong! There is obviously something missing. Can you give up this many goals and have any hope of being a serious contender?
- spatso

no

He thinks that their powerplay is their enforcer.

That is fine, if penalties were called according to the rules. This is the NHL. Penalties are not called that way, and the Leafs have every right to question the PP totals the last couple years.

They went through a stretch recently where they were like 4-18 (+ an OT penalty shot) over a 4-game stretch.

There is no way this is supportable by actual play, ESPECIALLY when you see Pastrnak literally smack Muzzin in the head with his stick, right where the play is, and somehow no call.
- Aetherial

the Power play thing is really strange.

How does a team that plays a skill game end up getting more penalties consistently? there has to be a human element in play that provides a bias when it comes to physical play.

maybe the Leafs stand out when they do a minor infraction, and a team that does a bunch of stuff all game that could get called gets ignored most of the time?

like how does Domi punch someone in the face and not get a penalty?

Who is the guy that goes into the garbage zone on a power play and takes the abuse? Is it fair to say the Leafs need to score more ugly goals off of the net scrambles that are an important part of any power play?

Thank you Pierre. I miss your bald head on the main cast.
- AdamFrench

For the record, I disagree that the Leafs need so much pushback.(a little would be nice).

What they need is some heart and guts.

It is not so long ago that Montreal gave Boston fits in the playoffs. The Habs would take the crap from Boston, but skate through it and continue to play the speed and skill game.

The Leafs are every bit as capable of doing that. The problem is that they fold as soon as they are pressured or get hit.

Hockey is a physical game. Fight through a little adversity once in a while.

Oh, and there is zero excuse any more for the slow starts. This has been going on for a long time and isn't getting better. That screams a lack of preparation, and caresi.
- Aetherial

A+

Or Domi's sucker punch on Kerfoot
- PatC80

He didn't even land it.

the Power play thing is really strange.

How does a team that plays a skill game end up getting more penalties consistently? there has to be a human element in play that provides a bias when it comes to physical play.

maybe the Leafs stand out when they do a minor infraction, and a team that does a bunch of stuff all game that could get called gets ignored most of the time?

like how does Domi punch someone in the face and not get a penalty?
- senstroll

Almost worse than that is the ticky-tack stuff the Leafs constantly get called against them... the tripping, hooking, slashing, interference. Some of that is definitely a lack of effort. Some of it is simply bad refereeing.

What scares me is that there seems to be some narrative out there now that the Leafs don't work hard enough so they aren't "earning" penalties and the refs feel they should make every cheap call against them. This somehow is now the mindset the refs have going in to every game.

It reminds me exactly of the backlash Kadri faced. He drew so many penalties that the refs started to simply believe NOTHING was a penalty if the foul was against him. It got to be ridiculous, and it directly led to his meltdowns.

He didn't even land it.
- Scabeh

Didn't he? I had turned the game off already at that point.

It is pretty easy to decide whether a Leafs game is watchable 10 minutes in to the first.

the Power play thing is really strange.

How does a team that plays a skill game end up getting more penalties consistently? there has to be a human element in play that provides a bias when it comes to physical play.

maybe the Leafs stand out when they do a minor infraction, and a team that does a bunch of stuff all game that could get called gets ignored most of the time?

like how does Domi punch someone in the face and not get a penalty?
- senstroll

Skill players take penalties when they rely on their sticks too much in their defensive play. You need to take the body, complete your checks and force the other guy to respect your game.

He didn't even land it.
- Scabeh

Still, though.. Dropped his gloves and swung.. That should be a penalty.

Almost worse than that is the ticky-tack stuff the Leafs constantly get called against them... the tripping, hooking, slashing, interference. Some of that is definitely a lack of effort. Some of it is simply bad refereeing.

What scares me is that there seems to be some narrative out there now that the Leafs don't work hard enough so they aren't "earning" penalties and the refs feel they should make every cheap call. This somehow is now the mindset the refs have going in to every game.

It reminds me exactly of the backlash Kadri faced. He drew so many penalties that the refs started to simply believe NOTHING was a penalty if the foul was against him. It got to be ridiculous, and it directly led to his meltdowns.
- Aetherial

I do agree on that. I forgot about the Kadri thing.
But with a human element like that you are going to see these things play out.

I havent really looked at the PP/PK numbers to see how much is getting called each way.. just going off what I see in the games. which is not always the best way to view these things (emotional fan supporting 1 side of the coin)

Still, though.. Dropped his gloves and swung.. That should be a penalty.
- PatC80

You would think so. Wasn't it no matter what, if you dropped your gloves it was a penalty? I cant even remember with all the rules changes

Still, though.. Dropped his gloves and swung.. That should be a penalty.
- PatC80

There are no penalties for "attempted" infractions. 2 minutes for attempted roughing. Sounds kind of silly.

the Power play thing is really strange.

- senstroll

A couple pre-seasons ago, their powerplay looked lethal. People were talking about how they would fill the net.

At the time, I predicted what would happen is they would be given less power-plays. The NHL simply would not allow them to win scoring multiple PP goals every game.

Refereeing is simply not based on actions on the ice and to a certain extent, this issue is faced by all teams. We all know reputation, score of the game, home/away, time of the game, how many penalties have been called so far in the game ALL comes in to play.

Boston has this figure out. They know they can run whoever they want, even if they get penalties, the make-up calls will come their way later.

Skill players take penalties when they rely on their sticks too much in their defensive play. You need to take the body, complete your checks and force the other guy to respect your game.
- spatso

this sounds like a made up fluffy way to excuse the flawed way the game is called a lot of the time

Skill players take penalties when they rely on their sticks too much in their defensive play. You need to take the body, complete your checks and force the other guy to respect your game.
- spatso

Yes, and when the refs go into every game with the idea that the Leafs will not fight through checks, and will not finish a check, they go looking for calls against them.

There is absolutely NO justification for the penalty discrepancy the last 2 weeks or so.

I do agree on that. I forgot about the Kadri thing.
But with a human element like that you are going to see these things play out.

I havent really looked at the PP/PK numbers to see how much is getting called each way.. just going off what I see in the games. which is not always the best way to view these things (emotional fan supporting 1 side of the coin)
- senstroll

The numbers at one point last week were 4-18 (plus the OT penalty shot). The play by play guys pointed it out.

Hard to believe that is the result of games called fairly.