yes
Lou > Dubas
and it's not even close
- MaximusAurelius

But you're not actually saying anything.

This skill-first roster was well under development before Dubas took over. The entire organization bought into it, as have many other teams around the league.

Do we really think having Marleau, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Kadri, Brown back would have us at the top of the league?
- gravyface

Wouldn’t be worse than they are. But it’s sooooooo erroneous to think that a better GM would have kept the team the same. A better GM would have brought in players with heart, like the ones who actually care, and would have shipped floaters for better D, and negotiated a better deal with MM and AM. Not to mention keeping the 1st rounders.

So no, you are fundamentally wrong in your assumptions

actually boring to watch... no intensity of any kind... the PP is so facked right now they don't even look interested going over the boards....

but man - those zone entries make it all worth while...

I'm always left guessing is it going to be two or three steps over the blueline before they buttonhook
- BorjeFan4Ever

It's all about the radius. If the defender is within 4 steps and could potentially rub shoulders then the hook happens.

A lot could go wrong, but terminating the GM after a year at the helm because we overpaid for Marner and let Nylander sit too long? Again, having Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri back would've produced completely different results, is that what you're saying?

Coach goes first, then Dubas.

This isn't a millennial thing (I'm probably older than you are), but ironically, this is actually a traditional move that's produced results before... like the Bruins, who somehow got way better when they fired Julien and promoted Cassidy.
- gravyface

Babcock has proven he can win a SC.
Dubas hasn't proven anything - since before he got appointed to GM, I said it was a bad thing to make him GM of one of the biggest sports franchises in the world.
Dubas doesn't know how to value goalies. (he really has 0 clue).
He is a bad contract negotiator.
He doesn't understand that he has to listen to his coach in order to succeed.
And on top of that, he is a poor judge of character.

I'm in the let's-give-Dubas-more-than-a-year-and-a-bit camp because I don't believe that this current team's problems are personnel related: they are far too stacked (when healthy) to not be fighting for top spot in the division.

They have some holes (backup, Ceci), but have many key players are not playing up to their high standards:

Playing bad:
- Rielly
- Barrie

Playing ok:
- Tavares
- Marner
- Matthews

Guys playing above expectations:
- Holl
- Gauthier
- Mickey

Their 5v5 D and special teams are atrocious. That is 100% on the coaching. Why are they missing so many assignments? Why have new players (Ceci, Harpur) publicly come out in their interviews that the systems are difficult to understand and that they need more time to figure them out? This was at the end of training camp.

Babcock needs to go. I said I'd wait until November, and now we're at the quarter season mark, but I felt he needed to go in the summer after getting outcoached yet again by Boston.

Specifically, Babcock is too rigid with his systems, "his way", and does mindboggling things like starting the 4th line after a commercial break because tHe 4tH LiNe aLwAyS tAkEs tHe dZ FaCeOfFs.

He plays his best players far less than anyone else in the league and overplays his grinders.

He sits Holl and Leivo for months at a time, both serviceable NHLers who are now thriving with us or someone else, who may have ruined their careers in the process.

He refuses to make necessary adjustments throughout the game, whether it's calling a timeout or making an appropriate challenge on a call.

Babcock hasn't done anything in the NHL for over a decade; these players were in peewee when he last won a cup.

Time for a new look, salvage the season, let Dubas put his man in before canning him.

If Dubas and his new coach can't produce results, then yeah, it's time for Dubas to go, but after like a year in which he's done mostly good things, firing him now would be wrong.
- gravyface

Agree 100% with this post.

A lot could go wrong, but terminating the GM after a year at the helm because we overpaid for Marner and let Nylander sit too long? Again, having Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri back would've produced completely different results, is that what you're saying?

Coach goes first, then Dubas.

This isn't a millennial thing (I'm probably older than you are), but ironically, this is actually a traditional move that's produced results before... like the Bruins, who somehow got way better when they fired Julien and promoted Cassidy.
- gravyface

And the Blues last year.
And the Pens in 2016.
And the Pens in 2009.

Sometimes you need fresh ideas and fresh faces behind the bench. This would appear to be that time.

One of:
- Doug Wilson
- David Poile

(2 best GMs currently working in NHL).


1st move:
- sit down with your coach, and ask what he needs to succeed in the playoffs.


2nd move:
- trade Johnsson for a good backup (/fringe starting) NHL goalie

3rd move:
- trade Nylander for a youngish top4 RHD or a LW for Matthews' line
- MaximusAurelius

Johnson isn’t a problem.
He has to do all the work for the two gutless slugs on his line.

gen x during this whole boomer vs millennial/gen z thing


- daeth

Babcock has proven he can win a SC.
Dubas hasn't proven anything - since before he got appointed to GM, I said it was a bad thing to make him GM of one of the biggest sports franchises in the world.
Dubas doesn't know how to value goalies. (he really has 0 clue).
He is a bad contract negotiator.
He doesn't understand that he has to listen to his coach in order to succeed.
And on top of that, he is a poor judge of character.
- MaximusAurelius

Just because you put words on a page, doesn't make them true. Even if you yourself believe them. You literally (and I mean literally) have no (frank)ing clue what Dubas does or doesn't value.

And the Blues last year.
And the Pens in 2016.
And the Pens in 2009.

Sometimes you need fresh ideas and fresh faces behind the bench. This would appear to be that time.
- lumlums

Blues: Yeo was one of the worst coaches in NHL history
2009 Pens: Therrien
2016 Pens: (I assume you mean 2015): Johnston had never accomplished anything either.

All of these coaches aren't top in NHL.
Babcock is.

Now let's do the same for how GMs influence NHL team's success/failure.

A lot could go wrong, but terminating the GM after a year at the helm because we overpaid for Marner and let Nylander sit too long? Again, having Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri back would've produced completely different results, is that what you're saying?

Coach goes first, then Dubas.

This isn't a millennial thing (I'm probably older than you are), but ironically, this is actually a traditional move that's produced results before... like the Bruins, who somehow got way better when they fired Julien and promoted Cassidy.
- gravyface

Honestly, don't want to be a Richard (unusual for me) but i actually do think with Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri playing the results would have been better. Not top of the league or anything, but in a playoff spot.

Wouldn’t be worse than they are. But it’s sooooooo erroneous to think that a better GM would have kept the team the same. A better GM would have brought in players with heart, like the ones who actually care, and would have shipped floaters for better D, and negotiated a better deal with MM and AM. Not to mention keeping the 1st rounders.

So no, you are fundamentally wrong in your assumptions
- gamerdoc

Again, this is all just hyperbole: "better GM". "players with heart". "Mark Hunter, good ol' hockey guy..." "if Lou was still in charge..." blah blah blah.

Give the guy in charge now a chance to do something. He had a cap nightmare to navigate through, thanks to Lou, and ended up overpaying for Marner (and the verdict isn't even out on that yet), like that extra 1.25-2M would really be the difference maker on this team.

Let the guy in charge put his coach in, see what he can do. Let the guy in charge now make the adjustments he needs to do and he can lay in the bed he made, but not until he's actually been given a chance.

Step 1, turf Babcock.
Step 2, turf Dubas.
Step 3, turf Shanahan

Enjoy the ride with your so called leader!!!
- Wario

He's obviously captaining the Ark.
Let's see what pairs he chooses to be on the ship with him, while the remaining drown in a flood of fans tears and animosity.

Just because you put words on a page, doesn't make them true. Even if you yourself believe them. You literally (and I mean literally) have no (frank)ing clue what Dubas does or doesn't value.
- lumlums

you have an opinion
I have a fact-based opinion; the goalie history is so clear in favor of my opinion, that there is no way you can actually twist that in any other way.
but keep on sucking Dubas' wiener

Again, this is all just hyperbole: "better GM". "players with heart". "Mark Hunter, good ol' hockey guy..." "if Lou was still in charge..." blah blah blah.

Give the guy in charge now a chance to do something. He had a cap nightmare to navigate through, thanks to Lou, and ended up overpaying for Marner (and the verdict isn't even out on that yet), like that extra 1.25-2M would really be the difference maker on this team.

Let the guy in charge put his coach in, see what he can do. Let the guy in charge now make the adjustments he needs to do and he can lay in the bed he made, but not until he's actually been given a chance.

Step 1, turf Babcock.
Step 2, turf Dubas.
Step 3, turf Shanahan
Step 4, Turf Wodies back yard - dogs made a mess of it.

- gravyface

Marner is a top10 player in the NHL.
No problem there or with his contract.

The issues are:
- no backup goalie
- no d-men on the team that can defend
- too many soft wingers (that only think about patting their stats)
- an in potential elite C that is invisible most of the time, and does not want to play physical and has an attitude
- a GM that does not want to listen to his coach, but instead thinks he can change the way Stanley Cups are won
- MaximusAurelius

Offence wise he is, but he sucks in his own zone and a give away machine. He disappears when checking is tight and cannot drive his line like Hall or Kane. Not saying Marner is a bad player but just he is not $11M player. More importantly, his contract, along with AM’s have a ripple effect in everything. Like one less capable defender, back up goaltender, 1st rounders they have to ship... everything.

Blues: Yeo was one of the worst coaches in NHL history
2009 Pens: Therrien
2016 Pens: (I assume you mean 2015): Johnston had never accomplished anything either.

All of these coaches aren't top in NHL.
Babcock is.

Now let's do the same for how GMs influence NHL team's success/failure.
- MaximusAurelius

2015 was when they fired him, but it was 2016 that they won the cup (and again in 2017).

And what evidence do you have that Babcock is a top coach? His one cup with a stacked team? Or his consistently being out-coached when it counts?

This skill-first roster was well under development before Dubas took over. The entire organization bought into it, as have many other teams around the league.

Do we really think having Marleau, Zaitsev, Hainsey, Kadri, Brown back would have us at the top of the league?
- gravyface

4 out of 5 at least have heart.

you have an opinion
I have a fact-based opinion; the goalie history is so clear in favor of my opinion, that there is no way you can actually twist that in any other way.
but keep on sucking Dubas' wiener
- MaximusAurelius

He has Freddie as no. 1 who he inherited, and who I think we're all happy with.

He then took a chance on a guy who was a decade younger than the incumbent, and who was the reigning AHL goalie of the year - reasonable gamble, but didn't pay off.

Beyond that, what should he do? Which guy would you have as backup?

And the Blues last year.
And the Pens in 2016.
And the Pens in 2009.

Sometimes you need fresh ideas and fresh faces behind the bench. This would appear to be that time.
- lumlums

Blues - Goalie
Pens - Goalie

Yes, of course the coach is a big factor as well. But they both saw rising star goalies come out of nowhere. Kind of a combo of both.

Honestly, don't want to be a Richard (unusual for me) but i actually do think with Hainsey, Zaitsev, Brown and Kadri playing the results would have been better. Not top of the league or anything, but in a playoff spot.
- walshyleafsfan

Maybe, who knows, but we wouldn't have been able to resign Marner.

But a wholesale "let's build the St. Louis Blues because heavy is cool again... wait... didn't the Pens just win back-to-back cups a couple of years ago?" change is fundamentally impossible to pull off mid-season (or even the off-season) in a cap world, so we would absolutely be getting the wrong end of a deal or two (or three) in the process while the other teams laugh at us trading away Nylanders and Barries and Kapanens and Johnssons for Clutterbucks and Martins and Mansons and Andersons, and we'd probably be just as tight to the cap.

Again, this is all just hyperbole: "better GM". "players with heart". "Mark Hunter, good ol' hockey guy..." "if Lou was still in charge..." blah blah blah.

Give the guy in charge now a chance to do something. He had a cap nightmare to navigate through, thanks to Lou, and ended up overpaying for Marner (and the verdict isn't even out on that yet), like that extra 1.25-2M would really be the difference maker on this team.

Let the guy in charge put his coach in, see what he can do. Let the guy in charge now make the adjustments he needs to do and he can lay in the bed he made, but not until he's actually been given a chance.

Step 1, turf Babcock.
Step 2, turf Dubas.
Step 3, turf Shanahan
- gravyface

You don’t understand. His philosophy of small skilled players exclusively in the team will not work in NHL especially in the playoff. The evidence is right in your face. Why let him keep doing what doesn’t work? No sense of letting him finish what he started, unless you meant utter destruction of the teams’ fortune for the foreseeable future.

Realistically though, firing Dubas will put Shanny in the sight, so Shanny won’t do it. As you said, it will be Bab and then Dubas. Just politics. But all I’m saying is his approach of building only with skill isn’t working well.

Blues - Goalie
Pens - Goalie

Yes, of course the coach is a big factor as well. But they both saw rising star goalies come out of nowhere. Kind of a combo of both.
- aminnes

Maybe not start Hutchinson against the better teams on back-to-backs?

2015 was when they fired him, but it was 2016 that they won the cup (and again in 2017).

And what evidence do you have that Babcock is a top coach? His one cup with a stacked team? Or his consistently being out-coached when it counts?
- lumlums

I’m not a fan of Babcock.
But issues run deeper than him.