C'mon now. ANY trade for Tkatchuk would START with Marner going the other way. And THAT might not even be enough (although, should be close). Tkatchuk is a stud!!! scores, grit, a leader. No way I part with him if I am Calgary!
- hawk35

while thats fine, the Flames are sputtering around in dissapointment land just like the Leafs.

having a grit and leadershiper doesnt always just mean automatic wins

I'm hoping they draft Cole Perfetti is they do get in the top 10.
- PatC80

Perfecto lite.

Sounds good

alll had better years than nylander prior to signing. he should have ended up less than those guys.
- Tumbleweed

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?

And, for the record, I'm not defending Willie ...I have no horse in this race. My point is that the cost of a 6 yr deal for Willie was 6.5-7.5 at time he signed. If you're not a Willie fan then you trade him if you are a Willie fan then you sign him.

It is what it is ....or was what it was ....but you don't get to pretend that you (or anybody else) would have waived your magic wand and got all these guys to sign for less.

Yeah, a $7~ million cap hit for a guy putting up 60+ points per year isn't unreasonable.


Ultimately just about every player is producing at around the pace you'd expect for their cap hit, it's just that there's almost no buy-in at all defensively because the guys have tuned out the coach.

He's asking them to play in a manner that doesn't fit the roster they have, and they know it.
- BINGO!

I can't believe I'm saying this, but, you're right..

I think this team is too talented to be where they are.. It does look like they've turned on Babcock.

while thats fine, the Flames are sputtering around in dissapointment land just like the Leafs.

having a grit and leadershiper doesnt always just mean automatic wins
- senstroll

If morale is going downhill fast, we should be concerned.

If morals are going downhill fast, they will all be out by Christmas with VD.

Except Marner - he's never going to get laid. Even with Willie as his wingman.
- Atomic Wedgie

i am concerned about morals. with willy in the room, it's just a matter of time before burning sulfur starts raining down like back in sodom and gommorah.

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?
- The Law

Ehlers is probably the best comparable. He got an extra year at 900k per. Similar if not better production.

I could still care less about Willies contract. It's far from the ball and chain the whiners want to make it out to be.

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?
- The Law

iv given up trying. Some fans are just incapable of separating the hate/bias/whatever from Willie. you will never convince anyone.

No other teams were sniffing around otherwise it would have gotten done well before December.
- bobbyisno1

That makes a tonne of sense ...

Perfecto lite.

Sounds good
- walshyleafsfan

exactly.

- AdamFrench

But I can always apply the grit and leadeship after a team wins, because who can prove it wrong

That may be true, but is playing pond hockey a way to win the Stanley Cup?
- Atomic Wedgie

you don't have to be a world beater on defense to just recognize where you're supposed to be and stand there.

Just feels like the team would be way better served by going with balls-out offensive pressure and trusting your goalie to stop the 3 or 4 odd man rushes you give up in a game that way rather than having the d hang back and just get beat because they're poopty at playing D to begin with.

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?

And, for the record, I'm not defending Willie ...I have no horse in this race. My point is that the cost of a 6 yr deal for Willie was 6.5-7.5 at time he signed. If you're not a Willie fan then you trade him if you are a Willie fan then you sign him.

It is what it is ....or was what it was ....but you don't get to pretend that you (or anybody else) would have waived your magic wand and got all these guys to sign for less.
- The Law

When you get into prorating the signing date of the contracts, RNH, Eberle, Hall are all in the $7.3m range of equivalent cap, Pastrnak is $6.9, Monahan is $6.9 . . .

Nylander's deal is in the right range.

well Mikheyev makes 900k
also he has looked pretty awful the last few weeks, just like the rest.

but you can say ..wow did Marner and Nylander kill it on the ELC. and the Leafs got a huge ROI
- senstroll

I wouldn't say awful. He hasn't been as good as he was and he hasn't gotten the chances he was getting earlier in the season but he's still working his ass off every shift.

you don't have to be a world beater on defense to just recognize where you're supposed to be and stand there.

Just feels like the team would be way better served by going with balls-out offensive pressure and trusting your goalie to stop the 3 or 4 odd man rushes you give up in a game that way rather than having the d hang back and just get beat because they're poopty at playing D to begin with.
- BINGO!

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.
- Atomic Wedgie

Is it not on the coach to encourage players? Shouldn't the coach be giving some kind of motivational speech?

I know it's not all on Babcock and I don't blame everything on him, but I think this roster knows how to hockey, I think they are just waiting for a coaching change to show it.

Ehlers is probably the best comparable. He got an extra year at 900k per. Similar if not better production.

I could still care less about Willies contract. It's far from the ball and chain the whiners want to make it out to be.
- joel878

Yup, probably one of the better comps. And Ehlers is 8% of Cap to Willies' 8.75% ...pretty close.

The Jets got a slightly better deal because they signed Ehlers the summer before his big 3rd year. Ehlers takes a bit of a discount to get paid a year early.

I think they could have saved some bucks by being aggressive a year early on all these guys ...but the risk is that the player poops the bed in that 3rd year and we all have to listen to Max scream that Dubas is a dummy for signing them too early.

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.
- Atomic Wedgie

I'm not saying it's all on the system, more on the guy trying to implement it. They aren't listening to him any more.

But just look at where shots have been coming from.

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.
- Atomic Wedgie

The system factors in. The powerplay is the perfect example. You can watch damn near any other powerplay in the league and see it pretty fast.

But in typical Babcock fashion we will just go with it until it eventually works...

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?

And, for the record, I'm not defending Willie ...I have no horse in this race. My point is that the cost of a 6 yr deal for Willie was 6.5-7.5 at time he signed. If you're not a Willie fan then you trade him if you are a Willie fan then you sign him.

It is what it is ....or was what it was ....but you don't get to pretend that you (or anybody else) would have waived your magic wand and got all these guys to sign for less.
- The Law

it's a pattern of behaviour.


pasta and ehlers were the most recent comparables for willy; both had better numbers. willy ended up with the most, instead of something in and around the $6M ehlers got (but really less than 6m with the mid-season signing).

matthews over 8 years should have been just over eichel, not 5 years at just under mcd.

marner should have been in around aho and ratannen, not just under matthews and far and away the 3rd highest paid rfa.

and now we have a lack of depth and team that looks disjointed/lost.

but matthews, nylander and marner got paid their ~$10m signing bonuses. so the team is fine.

Nylander for Tkachuk?? Are you high? You must be hoping that Calgary is smoking some strong BC Bud. LOL I wouldn't give you new hockey pucks for Nylander. Maybe a pylon though. You could put the pylon out there on the ice and it would be like Nylander was still on the team. He's pure garbage, Timbit hockey players engage in more contact that he does. He's a derivative of a cat!

Yup, probably one of the better comps. And Ehlers is 8% of Cap to Willies' 8.75% ...pretty close.

The Jets got a slightly better deal because they signed Ehlers the summer before his big 3rd year. Ehlers takes a bit of a discount to get paid a year early.

I think they could have saved some bucks by being aggressive a year early on all these guys ...but the risk is that the player poops the bed in that 3rd year and we all have to listen to Max scream that Dubas is a dummy for signing them too early.
- The Law

Agreed 100%. We can debate nickels and dimes all day, but Willies contract will be the type we need when having 3 players making in the 11 million per season range becomes an issue.

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.
- Atomic Wedgie

I'm not a big fan of the whole world of 'caresy' but there is a point when you want to see some demonstrative anger on the ice. There is some "leadership" quality when a Clark or a Gilmour or a Tucker or whomever says (frank) this and throws his body into somebody or mauls a guy in front of the net when Andersen's getting bumped.

There's none of that with this team ...none.

while thats fine, the Flames are sputtering around in dissapointment land just like the Leafs.

having a grit and leadershiper doesnt always just mean automatic wins
- senstroll

hmm could be a hockey trade there🤔

I don't buy this "the system is the problem" BS.

The problem is that the players aren't putting forth enough effort.

FFS, they always give up the first franking goal. How is that possible?

One word: laziness.
- Atomic Wedgie

It's something. There are around 700 players in the NHL. I find it hard to believe that we have managed to amass the 15 laziest all on one team.

I firmly believe that these are all professional athletes who want to win. It's what they've spent their lives doing. Maybe they are struggling because it's gotten hard, and they're not used to that - but it's time to put on the big boy pants and go do big boy things.

It's very much a team game that relies on a team working cohesively, and this team is anything but. They aren't getting pucks to the net. They aren't getting to the net. They aren't moving the puck. They aren't moving with speed. They aren't even generating speed. In the defensive zone, I don't know if it's that they've lost trust in one another, but they aren't doing their jobs or don't seem to know them.

I remember during losing streaks around 2000 when Sundin and Quinn were there and they would talk about how the team would start playing as individuals and stop trusting each other when things would go off the rails. That's maybe what these guys are doing.

Maybe it's not systems and it's that so many players don't know each other enough yet and aren't trusting each other to do their job.

I don't know. It looks like a systemic problem to me. The PP and PK aren't working, and they can't break out at 5v5.