Breaking:

The Toronto Maple Leafs have traded William Nylander and Tyson Barrie for Tristian Jarry and Kris Letang
- Arctic_AARDVARK

snowflake nation instantly melts....

and hits their phones HARD... ordering copious amounts of chai tea lattes and half-caf moccachinos...

then searches for next great social cause... to whine about.



apologies - realize that was "generationaly" insensitive

it's a pattern of behaviour.


pasta and ehlers were the most recent comparables for willy; both had better numbers. willy ended up with the most, instead of something in and around the $6M ehlers got (but really less than 6m with the mid-season signing).

matthews over 8 years should have been just over eichel, not 5 years at just under mcd.

marner should have been in around aho and ratannen, not just under matthews and far and away the 3rd highest paid rfa.

and now we have a lack of depth and team that looks disjointed/lost.

but matthews, nylander and marner got paid their ~$10m signing bonuses. so the team is fine.
- Tumbleweed

Matthews deserves more than Eichel, less than mcdavid. So his is in the right range.

The problem contract will be Marner's. You're right, rantanen type of contract is what he should have had. Marner can kick and scream all day about how he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto, but he (frank)ed them on that contract and I'm willing to bet he's the cap victim when push comes to shove. He will make his sweet bucks in some toilet bowl market.

But, we can put that all on dubas, you and I and everyone else knows if dubas didn't get him signed, everyone would be on here ranting about how its the Willie situation all over again and it's all dubas fault. Kyles (frank)ed either way on that one...

it's a pattern of behaviour.


pasta and ehlers were the most recent comparables for willy; both had better numbers. willy ended up with the most, instead of something in and around the $6M ehlers got (but really less than 6m with the mid-season signing).

matthews over 8 years should have been just over eichel, not 5 years at just under mcd.

marner should have been in around aho and ratannen, not just under matthews and far and away the 3rd highest paid rfa.

and now we have a lack of depth and team that looks disjointed/lost.

but matthews, nylander and marner got paid their ~$10m signing bonuses. so the team is fine.
- Tumbleweed

Well my friend I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of this. I was hoping for slightly less with Willie ...slightly longer with Matthews and was probably most surprised by Marner's $$ but ultimately the choice was to take them to the wire in the negotiations (which he did with Willie and Marner) and either walk away, trade them or sign them to their final offer. Getting Marner to sign 6 x 9 wasn't an option, or Willie to 6 x 6.

He chose to sign them to their final/best offers ...he bet on them andtime will tell whether they'll earn their paycheques.

Nylander for Tkachuk?? Are you high? You must be hoping that Calgary is smoking some strong BC Bud. LOL I wouldn't give you new hockey pucks for Nylander. Maybe a pylon though. You could put the pylon out there on the ice and it would be like Nylander was still on the team. He's pure garbage, Timbit hockey players engage in more contact that he does. He's a derivative of a cat!
- JDub76

marner for Kachuk then?

I recall a willie for tkachuk idea being tossed out there and do recall seeing some predictable willie lovers replies.
- Fakepartofme

It would’ve been me for sure.

Max is right about this.

The Branch Nylandians are the most aggressive sect of the analytics cult.

Nylander for Tkachuk?? Are you high? You must be hoping that Calgary is smoking some strong BC Bud. LOL I wouldn't give you new hockey pucks for Nylander. Maybe a pylon though. You could put the pylon out there on the ice and it would be like Nylander was still on the team. He's pure garbage, Timbit hockey players engage in more contact that he does. He's a derivative of a cat!
- JDub76

if you are responding to me

take note: +++

thank you kind troll.

I'm not saying I agree that they should look into Doughty but I do think they should consider it.
- daeth

It would’ve been me for sure.

Max is right about this.

The Branch Nylandians are the most aggressive sect of the analytics cult.
- Arctic_AARDVARK

lmfaooooooooo 🤣

You're picking and choosing ...compare their ages, all of their first 3 years of production ....where the cap is/was at the time their new deals were going to start paying out.

Is there a comparable to Willie (an RFA who had similar production) who signed for significantly less than Willie on a 6 yr deal?

And, for the record, I'm not defending Willie ...I have no horse in this race. My point is that the cost of a 6 yr deal for Willie was 6.5-7.5 at time he signed. If you're not a Willie fan then you trade him if you are a Willie fan then you sign him.

It is what it is ....or was what it was ....but you don't get to pretend that you (or anybody else) would have waived your magic wand and got all these guys to sign for less.
- The Law

all very sound reasoning...

the problem that Willy's contract created was with Dubas... he "caved" or seemed to cave on Nylander... setting the tone for having virtually no spine/bargaining position with Marner in particular.

so - perhaps Dubas should have sat Nylander for the year or fought the .5M less battle - if for nothing more than setting the "right" tone with the other guys.

I think, based on hindsight(we all know its 20-20) that Marner should not have gotten more than 9.5 or so, and that Dubas probably should have tried to sign Matthews for longer.

the carryover problem is no CAP flexibility - and that resulted in a lost 1st round pick and other trades to facilitate not icing 4 AHL defenseman.

snowflake nation instantly melts....

and hits their phones HARD... ordering copious amounts of chai tea lattes and half-caf moccachinos...

then searches for next great social cause... to whine about.



apologies - realize that was "generationaly" insensitive
- BorjeFan4Ever

This is why I always call things how I see them. I’ve been fighting off the DERPS for over a year now, and gradually more and more people are seeing what I’m seeing.

It’s obvious who the real hockey fans are, and who just like making graphs and charts, or tweeting about Willys fashion.

all very sound reasoning...

the problem that Willy's contract created was with Dubas... he "caved" or seemed to cave on Nylander... setting the tone for having virtually no spine/bargaining position with Marner in particular.

so - perhaps Dubas should have sat Nylander for the year or fought the .5M less battle - if for nothing more than setting the "right" tone with the other guys.

I think, based on hindsight(we all know its 20-20) that Marner should not have gotten more than 9.5 or so, and that Dubas probably should have tried to sign Matthews for longer.

the carryover problem is no CAP flexibility - and that resulted in a lost 1st round pick and other trades to facilitate not icing 4 AHL defenseman.
- BorjeFan4Ever

Im not sure how so many people are able to say dubas caved on Willie and mean it. It was in the media endlessly that Willie wanted 8-8.5 per, he signed at 6.9. How exactly is that dubas caving?

Matthews deserves more than Eichel, less than mcdavid. So his is in the right range.

The problem contract will be Marner's. You're right, rantanen type of contract is what he should have had. Marner can kick and scream all day about how he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto, but he (frank)ed them on that contract and I'm willing to bet he's the cap victim when push comes to shove. He will make his sweet bucks in some toilet bowl market.

But, we can put that all on dubas, you and I and everyone else knows if dubas didn't get him signed, everyone would be on here ranting about how its the Willie situation all over again and it's all dubas fault. Kyles (frank)ed either way on that one...
- joel878

The annoying thing about Marner's deal is that he took full advantage of the Leafs financial clout in the front loaded signing bonuses but gave nothing back, still getting the highest AAV out of all the RFAs. Then, he gets his rookie bonuses cause he was mad about not getting them on a contract that he himself signed. It's all good if he lives up to it but his "I only want to play in Toronto" is definitely not 100% genuine.

You're right, Dubas was screwed either way because of the player and agent he was dealing with, the only way he isnt is if Marner lives up to it.

I wouldn't say awful. He hasn't been as good as he was and he hasn't gotten the chances he was getting earlier in the season but he's still working his ass off every shift.
- GreatGigInTheSky

well awful is a bit much yes, he is rounding out his stone hands very nicely though

snowflake nation instantly melts....

and hits their phones HARD... ordering copious amounts of chai tea lattes and half-caf moccachinos...

then searches for next great social cause... to whine about.



apologies - realize that was "generationaly" insensitive
- BorjeFan4Ever

I'm still struggling with the notion that "boomer" is just as terrible as the "n" word.

Matthews deserves more than Eichel, less than mcdavid. So his is in the right range.

The problem contract will be Marner's. You're right, rantanen type of contract is what he should have had. Marner can kick and scream all day about how he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto, but he (frank)ed them on that contract and I'm willing to bet he's the cap victim when push comes to shove. He will make his sweet bucks in some toilet bowl market.

But, we can put that all on dubas, you and I and everyone else knows if dubas didn't get him signed, everyone would be on here ranting about how its the Willie situation all over again and it's all dubas fault. Kyles (frank)ed either way on that one...
- joel878

We can and should put that on Dubas. He facked up the Nylander situation - setting the table for the rest. He needs to own that "tangibly"... not continue to cost the team futures (i.e. 1st round picks or prospects) to escape his poor moves. Yes he's made some very good moves, but the ones that are impacting the team most at the moment, and likely for the forseeable future - as his poor ones.

Yeah, a $7~ million cap hit for a guy putting up 60+ points per year isn't unreasonable.


Ultimately just about every player is producing at around the pace you'd expect for their cap hit, it's just that there's almost no buy-in at all defensively because the guys have tuned out the coach.

He's asking them to play in a manner that doesn't fit the roster they have, and they know it.
- BINGO!

He is asking them to be defensively responsible.

They don't give a poop,

They don't score NEARLY enough to justify the laziness.

Babcock needs to be fired because the team is no longer playing for him and haven't been for quite some time.

I'm still struggling with the notion that "boomer" is just as terrible as the "n" word.
- Atomic Wedgie

From this day forward, I shall only call him Norman Esiason:

I'm still struggling with the notion that "boomer" is just as terrible as the "n" word.
- Atomic Wedgie

Noomer doesn't sound that bad.

all very sound reasoning...

the problem that Willy's contract created was with Dubas... he "caved" or seemed to cave on Nylander... setting the tone for having virtually no spine/bargaining position with Marner in particular.

so - perhaps Dubas should have sat Nylander for the year or fought the .5M less battle - if for nothing more than setting the "right" tone with the other guys.

I think, based on hindsight(we all know its 20-20) that Marner should not have gotten more than 9.5 or so, and that Dubas probably should have tried to sign Matthews for longer.

the carryover problem is no CAP flexibility - and that resulted in a lost 1st round pick and other trades to facilitate not icing 4 AHL defenseman.
- BorjeFan4Ever

He could have (held out on Willie) and that would've taken some huge balls on his part given that the team (and I'm sure his bosses) were hoping for a big year/playoff run. You and I both know that half the fanbase would've lost their minds once they found out that they lost this top 6 winger (with a pair of 61 pt season's in his back pocket) was not signed to save 500k.

It was always going to be tough. And I think everybody is kidding themselves if they believe Lou would have let the kid sit out all year. The only difference with Lou "might" have been that he would've angled for a bridge contract with all of them.

From this day forward, I shall only call him Norman Esiason:


- Atomic Wedgie

Ok boomer

Is it not on the coach to encourage players? Shouldn't the coach be giving some kind of motivational speech?

I know it's not all on Babcock and I don't blame everything on him, but I think this roster knows how to hockey, I think they are just waiting for a coaching change to show it.
- PatC80

I also think that if a coach is asking players to play a certain way, and the results are not there...they can get lazy and sloppy. Its on the coach to keep the players going.

the one problem is Babs has an iron clad rep...he is the best, paid the most. Team canada coach. it has to go to his head that he is the best and what he says is right.

The annoying thing about Marner's deal is that he took full advantage of the Leafs financial clout in the front loaded signing bonuses but gave nothing back, still getting the highest AAV out of all the RFAs. Then, he gets his rookie bonuses cause he was mad about not getting them on a contract that he himself signed. It's all good if he lives up to it but his "I only want to play in Toronto" is definitely not 100% genuine.

You're right, Dubas was screwed either way because of the player and agent he was dealing with, the only way he isnt is if Marner lives up to it.
- 13sundin13

IMO, Marner was supposed to be the "easy one" to sign.. A hometown kid, grew up and dreamed about playing for the Leafs.. I didn't expect him to threaten the team like he did and hold them hostage.. I really thought we would get less than $10M.

I'm still struggling with the notion that "boomer" is just as terrible as the "n" word.
- Atomic Wedgie

the boomer thing is hilarious

that's the rough equivalent of telling someone they have spinach in their teeth...

you know, I have something in my teeth... might be a little embarrassed by it for a moment... but at the end of the day... its true - that's my age range - and as a sweeping generalization... I pay about as much attention to it as if someone told me all Germanic people have square heads.

but, if the Snowflakers receive unbounded joy out of typing out "Ok Boomer"... who am I to take that little pleasure away from them?

He was talking Martin.
- AdamFrench

No. James Earl, to play backup:

He is asking them to be defensively responsible.

They don't give a poop,

They don't score NEARLY enough to justify the laziness.

Babcock needs to be fired because the team is no longer playing for him and haven't been for quite some time.
- Aetherial

I think you are right.. Saturday night against a wounded Penguins team and a kid making his 1st NHL start.. They should have played better. No other excuse, other than they have quit on Babcock