20 not worth the time to make it up
- MaximusAurelius

Correct ...

Too me, it's not lack of talent or depth.

It's lack of giving a poop.
- Atomic Wedgie

Yup.
Thats all on our great players

Yup.
Thats all on our great players
- Fakepartofme

outside of tavares, they're not well-rounded enough or good enough offensively yet to carry the team / make up for the lack of depth.

dufus misread the roster.

injuries are a reason for losing only if you don't have the depth to win despite them.

the lack of depth is on the gm. his let's get ~9 guys for league min and max out our star player cap strategy was risky.

it's left them with no flexibility and is not paying off.
- Tumbleweed

You know why this debate is absolute nonsense? Because it assumes that both Dubas and Babcock aren't responsible.

Of course they BOTH are. List the issues with the team unbiasedly and I'm sure the list will point to both of these guys.

injuries are a reason for losing only if you don't have the depth to win despite them.

the lack of depth is on the gm. his let's get ~9 guys for league min and max out our star player cap strategy was risky.

it's left them with no flexibility and is not paying off.
- Tumbleweed

With 3 guys from the top 9 out, all teams would have two 4th lines. It's just the reality of the cap era. If anything, because you can bury guys @ $925k, the Leafs have an advantage in being able to have more fringe NHL'ers in their system.

The fringe guys aren't the problem. They've played 0 minutes with one of their top line together.

Could they have more flexibility if they had paid Matthews and Marner less (I know how you feel about Nylander, but on that one, I'd disagree - most people felt his contract should be in the 6-7 range)? Yeah, absolutely. In fact between those two, there's probably $2-$3m in excess salary that could have helped with at least the backup position, if not finding different options elsewhere. That wouldn't have been able to affect the unfortunate injury luck we've had and it wouldn't have been able to supplant the injuries to Tavares/Hyman/Marner to start the year.

Should be a good Leafs lunch today!

Cory Schneider is on waivers if we wanted to downgrade our backup position for just $6m.

injuries are a reason for losing only if you don't have the depth to win despite them.

the lack of depth is on the gm. his let's get ~9 guys for league min and max out our star player cap strategy was risky.

it's left them with no flexibility and is not paying off.
- Tumbleweed

Look around the league ....4th lines and bottom pairings are full of sub-1 milly contracts. The real crunch that having a roster with 40 milly tied up in 4 guys creates is felt most in "in-season" cap flexibility and back up goalie. Both issues for sure - and yes Dubas signed off on those risks.

IMO, it was worth the risk. It made sense. You don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. Elite talent is still the biggest asset on this team.

But, injuries and poor performance is (frank)ing it up. So maybe it's time to make some adjustments to the plan. He can try a coaching change to re-energize the room or he can make a trade that's going to re-energize the room.

Bottom line is the room looks/sounds like a unresponsive lump of poop.

We clearly need Ron Wilson back "Let's Go!"

You know why this debate is absolute nonsense? Because it assumes that both Dubas and Babcock aren't responsible.

Of course they BOTH are. List the issues with the team unbiasedly and I'm sure the list will point to both of these guys.
- The Law

exactly.

It can be a little of both here.
Most fans cant look at things unbiased.

One thing that sticks out to me was a few people mentioned that when the Leafs Hired Hakstol they would take more point shots and low danger chances. pretty sure it was a flyers fan.

Anyways, they are pretty much that now. I think the coaches are trying to shift the team and improve the D, but its marginally working (more explanaiton needed on this of course)..while at the same time its wiped out the high danger leafs from the past 2 seasons.

maybe its something that works out long term and helps.. but its really hard to see

Everyone and their uncle knows Dubas wants Keefe as coach, including everyone in that dressing room. This is double-plus ungood.

No wins since marners injury.
Omg

I cant stand the tkachuks but dammit matthew is perfect for this team
Willie, lili and pick for m tkachuk.

Calgary still says no



Edit: or willie, barrie plus for tkachuk plus something
Calgary probably still says no

- Fakepartofme

I am thinking Calgary would say no To Marner for Tkachuk. Unfortunately a trade between these teams wont be including tkachuk

You know why this debate is absolute nonsense? Because it assumes that both Dubas and Babcock aren't responsible.

Of course they BOTH are. List the issues with the team unbiasedly and I'm sure the list will point to both of these guys.
- The Law

2014-15: 68 points (Shanny, Nonis, Dubas, Hunter)
2015–16: 69 points (Shanny, Dubas, Hunter, Babcock)
2016–17: 95 points (Shanny, Lou, Dubas, Hunter, Babcock)
2017–18: 105 points (Shanny, Lou Dubas, Hunter, Babcock)
2018–19: 100 points (Shanny, Dubas, Babcock)
2019-20: 82 point pace (Shanny, Dubas, Babcock)

The biggest changes in the last 2 years were dubas taking over for lou, adding tavares and adding the big caphits for willy, matthews and marner.

Dubas is responsible for the 4 big contracts. He pushed lou out on a team that was trending upwards.

I was open to taking a wait and see approach with dubas. But the writing is on the wall. he took risks on his big 3 signature rfa signings by overpaying. his trade for muzzin has been mixed, but his trade for barrie has been a mess.

the leafs gm role shouldn't be a entry level job where you allowed to make mistakes and learn on the job. it's time to cut ties and get someone in here to right the ship.

im mostly interested in how it's not too early to fire dubas but it's too early to fire babcock

Do the Leafs really need a fourth line? We have arguably one of the best offensive teams on paper, why are we even bothering icing a fourth line at all? Don’t get me wrong I’ve liked the Goat’s play this season and he deserves some ice time with his play. Seems more strategic to slide him into the odd shift on one of the top three lines to give someone a rest. Why we have guys like Spezza, Shore, Timashov and so on taking away valuable minutes from the big boys is beyond me. They are getting 11 million a year let’s make them earn their keep and hopefully the Leafs players can figure it out. I’m disgusted with the effort of this team in the first 20 games.

No offence, but i think to many people have been drinking the coolaid. Prior to the start of this season, many fans, me included were hesitant to buy into the TSN SN hype of the lefas, because like many we watched the games of the season before and even with the players added, if you know the types they are, it wasn't going to bring much better results due to the system they play and the fact muzzin and barrie are far from the needed "shut down" hard nosed mobile dman the team needed.

They are the epitome of a team that relies on their goalie to much. Its been like that for years. But somehow people chose to rely on poopty analysts to stroke the ego, and this is where we are today. People scratching their heads. What i bolded is what the problem is. Stop looking at whats on the paper... and yes the team needs a (frank)ing 4th line. You need to be able to shut down an opposing teams lines as well...

Looking at all the head scratchers, seem like the same types that were baffled that Donald Trump could ever be elected. No one could see that coming... bullpoop. lots could and lots did. I think the big let down is seeing how many people trying to justify lazy predictions, and not looking at the meat of the issue in Tdot. You didnt look at the team objectively, and now you are surprised... really?

One thing the analysts have had right from the start with the HABs, you cant win when your goalie faces a million shots a season... the leafs have been a shooting gallery to opposing teams for years...

Babs, did nothing to address that, and maybe Dubas as well. No one wants to be a debby downer, but objectivity goes a long way. Not understanding a proper make up of a team goes a long way too.... you asking whether this team needed a 4th line is embarrassing.

It seems having 4 stud fwds and a stud dman, apparently absolves fans/fan analysts from using logic and reason.

Look at Craig Button. The ONLY analyst to say the leafs will fight for a playoff spot. The only one. He is getting praise now... but im sure hes frustrated or gloating because he probably ate crow from all his coworkers for such a preposterous take. All he did was just use the same logic, the same analysts use for other teams, and for some reason not for the leafs.

TBH, its (frank)ing frustrating to see them in this spot, there is so much to like on that team. FOR me this is a PR mistake from this summer. there was so much made about this team and the issues were glazed over, proof is, we have bloggers asking if this team needs a forth line because we have " an incredible team on paper" You mean you have an incredible 4-7 players...

I think the Leafs have the looking of a team that needs a kick in the a$$ then they will take off...I think they have all the pieces to do damage. As a Pens fan I've seen what can happen when an extremely under-performing roster gets such a kick in the a$$....cups.

RIP Babcock
- MattStrat

The kick in the ass needs to come from a coach that they believe in and want to play for.

I don't disagree with a lot of what Babcock is doing. He is trying to make them accountable. The people who complain about Matthews ice time are also the people who ignore the 30% effort he puts in most nights and/or give a free pass to Nylander for being the softest player in the league.

The problem is that the team doesn't care what Babcock says or does. They don't like him, they won't play for him. The sooner Dubahan realizes this, the better.

Breaking:

The Toronto Maple Leafs have traded William Nylander and Tyson Barrie for Tristian Jarry and Kris Letang
- Arctic_AARDVARK

im mostly interested in how it's not too early to fire dubas but it's too early to fire babcock
- daeth

8 million reasons.

Cory Schneider is on waivers if we wanted to downgrade our backup position for just $6m.
- Monkeypunk

I don't think we can afford Schneider even if NJ retained 50% of his salary.

Everyone and their uncle knows Dubas wants Keefe as coach, including everyone in that dressing room. This is double-plus ungood.
- mpr29

Great idea to have your NHL team being coached by a guy that had no manners (ask David Branch and Coyotes organization) and was involved with a bunch of people that were accused of sexually exploiting minors..

No offence, but i think to many people have been drinking the coolaid. Prior to the start of this season, many fans, me included were hesitant to buy into the TSN SN hype of the lefas, because like many we watched the games of the season before and even with the players added, if you know the types they are, it wasn't going to bring much better results due to the system they play and the fact muzzin and barrie are far from the needed "shut down" hard nosed mobile dman the team needed.

They are the epitome of a team that relies on their goalie to much. Its been like that for years. But somehow people chose to rely on poopty analysts to stroke the ego, and this is where we are today. People scratching their heads. What i bolded is what the problem is. Stop looking at whats on the paper... and yes the team needs a (frank)ing 4th line. You need to be able to shut down an opposing teams lines as well...

Looking at all the head scratchers, seem like the same types that were baffled that Donald Trump could ever be elected. No one could see that coming... bullpoop. lots could and lots did. I think the big let down is seeing how many people trying to justify lazy predictions, and not looking at the meat of the issue in Tdot. You didnt look at the team objectively, and now you are surprised... really?

One thing the analysts have had right from the start with the HABs, you cant win when your goalie faces a million shots a season... the leafs have been a shooting gallery to opposing teams for years...

Babs, did nothing to address that, and maybe Dubas as well. No one wants to be a debby downer, but objectivity goes a long way. Not understanding a proper make up of a team goes a long way too.... you asking whether this team needed a 4th line is embarrassing.

It seems having 4 stud fwds and a stud dman, apparently absolves fans/fan analysts from using logic and reason.

Look at Craig Button. The ONLY analyst to say the leafs will fight for a playoff spot. The only one. He is getting praise now... but im sure hes frustrated or gloating because he probably ate crow from all his coworkers for such a preposterous take. All he did was just use the same logic, the same analysts use for other teams, and for some reason not for the leafs.

TBH, its (frank)ing frustrating to see them in this spot, there is so much to like on that team. FOR me this is a PR mistake from this summer. there was so much made about this team and the issues were glazed over, proof is, we have bloggers asking if this team needs a forth line because we have " an incredible team on paper" You mean you have an incredible 4-7 players...
- munky123

It amazes me the amount of effort trolls put into their trolling efforts on HB.

I commend you.

No offence, but i think to many people have been drinking the coolaid. Prior to the start of this season, many fans, me included were hesitant to buy into the TSN SN hype of the lefas, because like many we watched the games of the season before and even with the players added, if you know the types they are, it wasn't going to bring much better results due to the system they play and the fact muzzin and barrie are far from the needed "shut down" hard nosed mobile dman the team needed.

They are the epitome of a team that relies on their goalie to much. Its been like that for years. But somehow people chose to rely on poopty analysts to stroke the ego, and this is where we are today. People scratching their heads. What i bolded is what the problem is. Stop looking at whats on the paper... and yes the team needs a (frank)ing 4th line. You need to be able to shut down an opposing teams lines as well...

Oh and your take on Button is wrong. He is well liked and well-respected at work. This I know to be true, despite what idiots here think of him.


Looking at all the head scratchers, seem like the same types that were baffled that Donald Trump could ever be elected. No one could see that coming... bullpoop. lots could and lots did. I think the big let down is seeing how many people trying to justify lazy predictions, and not looking at the meat of the issue in Tdot. You didnt look at the team objectively, and now you are surprised... really?

One thing the analysts have had right from the start with the HABs, you cant win when your goalie faces a million shots a season... the leafs have been a shooting gallery to opposing teams for years...

Babs, did nothing to address that, and maybe Dubas as well. No one wants to be a debby downer, but objectivity goes a long way. Not understanding a proper make up of a team goes a long way too.... you asking whether this team needed a 4th line is embarrassing.

It seems having 4 stud fwds and a stud dman, apparently absolves fans/fan analysts from using logic and reason.

Look at Craig Button. The ONLY analyst to say the leafs will fight for a playoff spot. The only one. He is getting praise now... but im sure hes frustrated or gloating because he probably ate crow from all his coworkers for such a preposterous take. All he did was just use the same logic, the same analysts use for other teams, and for some reason not for the leafs.

TBH, its (frank)ing frustrating to see them in this spot, there is so much to like on that team. FOR me this is a PR mistake from this summer. there was so much made about this team and the issues were glazed over, proof is, we have bloggers asking if this team needs a forth line because we have " an incredible team on paper" You mean you have an incredible 4-7 players...
- munky123

They rely on their goalie too much because they are too lazy and disinterested in playing defense. This is because they really don't give a poop about the coach and what he says.

I really don't think Babcock is coaching the team to do constant flybys and lose track of their defensive assignements all game. every game.

Look around the league ....4th lines and bottom pairings are full of sub-1 milly contracts. The real crunch that having a roster with 40 milly tied up in 4 guys creates is felt most in "in-season" cap flexibility and back up goalie. Both issues for sure - and yes Dubas signed off on those risks.

IMO, it was worth the risk. It made sense. You don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. Elite talent is still the biggest asset on this team.

But, injuries and poor performance is (frank)ing it up. So maybe it's time to make some adjustments to the plan. He can try a coaching change to re-energize the room or he can make a trade that's going to re-energize the room.

Bottom line is the room looks/sounds like a unresponsive lump of poop.

We clearly need Ron Wilson back "Let's Go!"
- The Law

yeah, but you can't run two 4th lines, a couple ahl'ers on defense and an ahl backup.

willy - $1.25M overpaid.
matthews - $1.25M overpaid
marner - $2.5M overpaid

$5M allows you to keep brown, add a backup and add a depth dman.

it was way to early to have a cap casualty in brown - we haven't won anything for (frank)'s sake!!!

Should be a good Leafs lunch today!
- Hockey_Reverend

I don't often get to listen to the morning shows but Carlo was teed-up this morning. He wants the 3 toughest Ahl'ers called up right away. Not because they'll make any real difference but just to to increase the caresy meter and to offer some push back.

Set the next 3 games as team building ...tell the new 4th liners to hit everything they can and drop the gloves all the time. I want some chaos!

I don't often get to listen to the morning shows but Carlo was teed-up this morning. He wants the 3 toughest Ahl'ers called up right away. Not because they'll make any real difference but just to to increase the caresy meter and to offer some push back.

Set the next 3 games as team building ...tell the new 4th liners to hit everything they can and drop the gloves all the time. I want some chaos!
- The Law

ryan reaves goes 3-0 on tuesday, 3 tko's.

Just a note from an old guy watching these clowns, then I will be off.

This team leaves me be Bonkers, Bothered and Belligerent.

From the net out:

- backup that was 0 for is gone, played crappy.
- Anderson has played well at moments but has looked terrible on many goals and in many situations. Why was he on his chest for both of the Marchand goals last game against Boston, poor positional tending has not helped this team at all.
- Defense - Barrie looks like he has no idea what the (frank) is going down... The boys forgot about defensive rotations that we teach/learn in Bantam.... Cecil looks like he never knew what defensive rotation even means.....Morgan has forgot how to play a man and not the puck....
- Forwards - Marner owes the Leafs a bunch of money back.... Willie is softer than a new fallen snow.... Matthews has only looked ok the past couple of games as far as his back checking and Give-a-fuuck-o-meter has been working. Injuries happen, but the boys outside of the top 4 guys can also score a god damn goal too.... Speza, retire.... Taveres has been snake biten i think, looks slow and over-paid.
- Babcock has to get his shiit together or fuuck right off. His use of these players is explainable. His systems are not working, the boys don't friggin get it Mike...FFS, I think anyone could have this result coaching this team.

- Bright points, the Goat has been a pleasant surprise. Sandin was awesome.


Cheers,