18-19

Isles: 103 points
Leafs: 100 points

19-20

isles 29 points in 18 games
leafs 22 points in 22 games


#bringbacklou
- Tumbleweed

I can't help but feel like GM results are like economics. In the sense that, if you're hanging your hat on by the second results, you're probably doing it wrong. It's a long term game.

Interesting also how should have kept Lou seems to be the answer. The guy who signed Marleau and lost Tavares to dubas.

The isles lost in the 2nd round, no? Does that somehow imply that if the leafs make the second round that people will shut the (frank) up about dubas? Cause I don't think that's a thing either...

this just may be babcocks last game behind the bench in Toronto.

crazy.

this just may be babcocks last game behind the bench in Toronto.

crazy.
- Lucas.Neilson

Maybe at the end of the week. Can't see them doing it after tonight's game.

I feel like you're giving Lou a lot of credit for other people's work.

This is his body of work with the Islanders:

Traded for Matt Martin

Hired Barry Trotz

Did not resign Tavares
Did not resign Robin Lehner

Signed Valtteri Filppula to a 1yr x 2.75m deal
Signed Robin Lehner to a 1yr x 1.5m deal
Signed Jan Kovar to a 1yr x 2m deal
Signed Luca Sbisa to a 1yr x 1.5m deal
Signed Semyon Varlamov to a 4yr x 5m deal
Signed Derick Brassard to a 1yr x 1.2m deal

resigned Leo Komarov to a 4yr x 3m deal
resigned Thomas Hickey to a 4yr x 2.5m deal
resigned Ryan Pulock to a 2yr x 2m deal
resigned Brock Nelson to a 1yr x 4.25m deal
resigned Dennis Seidenberg to a 1yr x 700k deal
resigned Brock Nelson to a 6yr x 6m deal
resigned Jordan Eberle to a 5yr x 5.5m deal
resigned Tom Kühnhackl to a 1yr x 850k deal
resigned Anders Lee to a 7yr x 7m deal
resigned Michael Dal Colle to a 2yr x 700k deal
resigned Anthony Beauvillier to a 2yr x 2.1m deal
- Monkeypunk

isles had some decent pieces there, but snow got never put it all together. lou somehow kept that team going despite losing tavares.

it's one thing to be able to collect the pieces. it's another to use the pieces you have to build something that works in the best way possible.

we have an ea sports gm. not a builder.

Yuck

How are they winning?
- mr.sir

Barry Trotz

They're buying into his system and it's working wonderfully for them.

this just may be babcocks last game behind the bench in Toronto.

crazy.
- Lucas.Neilson

isles had some decent pieces there, but snow got never put it all together. lou somehow kept that team going despite losing tavares.

it's one thing to be able to collect the pieces. it's another to use the pieces you have to build something that works in the best way possible.

we have an ea sports gm. not a builder.
- Tumbleweed

Lou's plan: hire Barry Trotz, sit back and watch as you claim to be the bestest GM ever.?

isles had some decent pieces there, but snow got never put it all together. lou somehow kept that team going despite losing tavares.

it's one thing to be able to collect the pieces. it's another to use the pieces you have to build something that works in the best way possible.

we have an ea sports gm. not a builder.
- Tumbleweed

He hired a coach who wasn't a (frank)ing moron like Jack ECHLuano or Doug Weight. Pulock is their #1 defender the past two seasons and before that they ran the Andrew MacDonald's and other poop tiers 29 minutes a night and wondered why they sucked.

He hired a coach who wasn't a (frank)ing moron like Jack ECHLuano or Doug Weight. Pulock is their #1 defender the past two seasons and before that they ran the Andrew MacDonald's and other poop tiers 29 minutes a night and wondered why they sucked.
- AdamFrench

So basically... What you're suggesting here is that it doesn't matter what the GM does if the coach is a (frank) up anyways?

So basically... What you're suggesting here is that it doesn't matter what the GM does if the coach is a (frank) up anyways?
- joel878

I think it's; Hire a good coach and you look good?

Imagine the Leafs won the cup this year? The Leafs wouldn't fire Babcock and we will be doomed

I can't help but feel like GM results are like economics. In the sense that, if you're hanging your hat on by the second results, you're probably doing it wrong. It's a long term game.

Interesting also how should have kept Lou seems to be the answer. The guy who signed Marleau and lost Tavares to dubas.

The isles lost in the 2nd round, no? Does that somehow imply that if the leafs make the second round that people will shut the (frank) up about dubas? Cause I don't think that's a thing either...
- joel878

it's a long-term game until you put together a roster of a core group of players.

you then think 100% short term and look at contending for a cup. first by taking an advantage of long-term discounted rfa contracts and plugging holes by taking risks and overpaying ufas. you go balls out for a cup. no wussy footing around with low-risk long-term moves.

to keep contending, you hope to hell you drafted well and bridge your next group of young players as your stars get better and move on to big money deals.

we have no cap room to plug holes with ufa vets. we now sit and wait 2-3 years for some of the other younger players to get better.

this should have been a cup contending year and we're taking a step back.

marner for jones.

fuk. fukty fuk fuk.

how the fuking fuk did fuking marner end up with more than 10.5 fuking million? that should have fuking been the fuking abosulte fuking ceiling.

fuking dubas modelled this fuking team after the craig fuking fuk mctavish school of fuked up gm'ing.

completely fuking blew the best fuking chance to put a deep fuking roster together by saving some fuking money on his fuking rfas.

what a colossal fuking fuk up.
- Tumbleweed

nice eliteration

Lou's plan: hire Barry Trotz, sit back and watch as you claim to be the bestest GM ever.?
- PatC80

maybe lou knows a few things about hockey.

he played the hand he was dealt in ny. he's using a group of mid-level players that play well under the right coach.

not luck. and having insight into how the leafs (and others) are building their teams probably gave him some ideas on how to counter the possession 1st teams.

Imagine the Leafs won the cup this year? The Leafs wouldn't fire Babcock and we will be doomed
- Santo_44

But what if they fired him prior to winning this cup?

isles had some decent pieces there, but snow got never put it all together. lou somehow kept that team going despite losing tavares.

it's one thing to be able to collect the pieces. it's another to use the pieces you have to build something that works in the best way possible.

we have an ea sports gm. not a builder.
- Tumbleweed

Exactly. They had decent pieces already. Barry Trotz is the rug that really tied the room together.

I can't see Lou having made much difference in Toronto. For one thing, he probably doesn't aggressively court Tavares. That in and of itself might get Matthews and Marner in at a lower salary since there's no direct comparable. That said, it was Bob McKenzie who said that the Matthews camp was using McDavid's contract as a base comparable for the purposes of the conversation. I don't recall his camp ever mentioning Tavares' contract once.

The bed with Marleau was made, so if they'd never signed Tavares, that probably doesn't cost a 1st round pick to escape from, but we still wouldn't have much room to improve the D with the remaining space since Marleau would be eating $6.25m of it.

Lou with the Leafs, after signing Andersen and the Leafs starting to show promise, didn't do much either:

Traded Valiev, Rychel and a 2nd for Plekanec.
He got a 4th for Soshnikov which probably deserves a medal of some sort.
He traded a 6th and Lindberg for Pickard, so maybe we take the medal back.
They traded Byron Froese and a 2nd for Boyle

Before that stuff, I actually really liked a lot of what he did to bring in temporary assets and move them for picks and prospects and rebuild the empty cupboard. They were smart moves creating roster space and cap space.

it's a long-term game until you put together a roster of a core group of players.

you then think 100% short term and look at contending for a cup. first by taking an advantage of long-term discounted rfa contracts and plugging holes by taking risks and overpaying ufas. you go balls out for a cup. no wussy footing around with low-risk long-term moves.

to keep contending, you hope to hell you drafted well and bridge your next group of young players as your stars get better and move on to big money deals.

we have no cap room to plug holes with ufa vets. we now sit and wait 2-3 years for some of the other younger players to get better.

this should have been a cup contending year and we're taking a step back.
- Tumbleweed

All dubas has done to this point (in the year and a half he's had the team) to catch heat is lock up the teams 3 top young players long term and recruit Tavares. Since doing that he's had to focus on addressing a blueline. And although the results don't speak, there's more assets on the blueline now than there has been in at least a decade (its an ugly truth)

Playing the short term game is not simply a go once your core is locked up, there's always other variables at play, and you wouldn't be able to look at any of them unless you knew your core was locked up long term.

It's 20 games into the season and 1.5 years into dubas' tenure, and you really think this is a rational hill to die on?

No GM in the league has the luxury of going okay, you're gonna take a million less, you're gonna take 1.5 million less... And I'm just gonna throw that money up in the air and good players are going to appear. And then decide if it doesn't work in 20 games your window is blown off the face of the earth.

Exactly. They had decent pieces already. Barry Trotz is the rug that really tied the room together.

I can't see Lou having made much difference in Toronto. For one thing, he probably doesn't aggressively court Tavares. That in and of itself might get Matthews and Marner in at a lower salary since there's no direct comparable. That said, it was Bob McKenzie who said that the Matthews camp was using McDavid's contract as a base comparable for the purposes of the conversation. I don't recall his camp ever mentioning Tavares' contract once.

The bed with Marleau was made, so if they'd never signed Tavares, that probably doesn't cost a 1st round pick to escape from, but we still wouldn't have much room to improve the D with the remaining space since Marleau would be eating $6.25m of it.

Lou with the Leafs, after signing Andersen and the Leafs starting to show promise, didn't do much either:

Traded Valiev, Rychel and a 2nd for Plekanec.
He got a 4th for Soshnikov which probably deserves a medal of some sort.
He traded a 6th and Lindberg for Pickard, so maybe we take the medal back.
They traded Byron Froese and a 2nd for Boyle

Before that stuff, I actually really liked a lot of what he did to bring in temporary assets and move them for picks and prospects and rebuild the empty cupboard. They were smart moves creating roster space and cap space.
- Monkeypunk

we had a deep management team and were trending up.

we gave that up and are now trending down. the results speak for themselves.

idk what to say. this is absolute garbage. we endured years of mediocre hockey and the long and boring throw-away tank seasons.

mediocre results this year are completely unacceptable.

we had a deep management team and were trending up.

we gave that up and are now trending down. the results speak for themselves.

idk what to say. this is absolute garbage. we endured years of mediocre hockey and the long and boring throw-away tank seasons.

mediocre results this year are completely unacceptable.
- Tumbleweed

This much I can agree with you on.

The part I don't get is how anyone can look at the situation at face value, look to blame one of dubas and Babcock, and between those two pick dubas.

If it's a paper game, and someone wants to look at the names and think it's on dubas, I mean sure. One is entitled to that opinion. But I am completely lost as to how anyone could watch the games night in and night out and not think it's a Babcock problem..

Everything from the PP/PK to the blueline, to forward usage to line selection. Every single bit of it is a (frank)ing mess and its all on Babcock, not dubas. There are a million other one ice issues that may not be directly attributed to babs... But they are his responsibility to, not dubas'.

All dubas has done to this point (in the year and a half he's had the team) to catch heat is lock up the teams 3 top young players long term and recruit Tavares. Since doing that he's had to focus on addressing a blueline. And although the results don't speak, there's more assets on the blueline now than there has been in at least a decade (its an ugly truth)

Playing the short term game is not simply a go once your core is locked up, there's always other variables at play, and you wouldn't be able to look at any of them unless you knew your core was locked up long term.

It's 20 games into the season and 1.5 years into dubas' tenure, and you really think this is a rational hill to die on?

No GM in the league has the luxury of going okay, you're gonna take a million less, you're gonna take 1.5 million less... And I'm just gonna throw that money up in the air and good players are going to appear. And then decide if it doesn't work in 20 games your window is blown off the face of the earth.
- joel878

exactly. dubas is the one who overpaid is three star players. the lack of depth because he has no cap space is completely on dubas.

and yes - there are plenty of comparison points that could have ended in less money for his stars.

dubas caved and paid all 3 what they were looking for, despite having all the financial leverage to scare off offer sheets and provide lockout/buyout proof bonus heavy contracts.

he has no business negotiating multi million dollar deals.

This much I can agree with you on.

The part I don't get is how anyone can look at the situation at face value, look to blame one of dubas and Babcock, and between those two pick dubas.

If it's a paper game, and someone wants to look at the names and think it's on dubas, I mean sure. One is entitled to that opinion. But I am completely lost as to how anyone could watch the games night in and night out and not think it's a Babcock problem..

Everything from the PP/PK to the blueline, to forward usage to line selection. Every single bit of it is a (frank)ing mess and its all on Babcock, not dubas. There are a million other one ice issues that may not be directly attributed to babs... But they are his responsibility to, not dubas'.
- joel878

dubas went big on a core group of players.

dubas needed to fill out the roster with good cheap depth players.

of the dozen or whatever minimum salary guys he brought in this year, only 1 paid off. he completely failed there and left himself with no outs to improve depth; unless he trades a big $ deal.

we had a deep management team and were trending up.

we gave that up and are now trending down. the results speak for themselves.

idk what to say. this is absolute garbage. we endured years of mediocre hockey and the long and boring throw-away tank seasons.

mediocre results this year are completely unacceptable.
- Tumbleweed

No one is happy, that's for sure.

The management team was Lamoriello with Hunter and Dubas. Now it's Dubas with Pridham and Gilman. I've heard good things about Pridham and Gilman.

I'm not sure about Hunter to be honest. For example . . .was he behind Korshkov when they could have had De Brincat?

exactly. dubas is the one who overpaid is three star players. the lack of depth because he has no cap space is completely on dubas.

and yes - there are plenty of comparison points that could have ended in less money for his stars.

dubas caved and paid all 3 what they were looking for, despite having all the financial leverage to scare off offer sheets and provide lockout/buyout proof bonus heavy contracts.

he has no business negotiating multi million dollar deals.
- Tumbleweed

The part about paying them what they were looking for is completely incorrect. Nylander was reported to want 8-8.5 mil per. Marner was at Matthews money and wanted a min of 10 mil on a bridge. Matthews numbers weren't flung around the media other than to say mcdavid was his comparable. That part is flat out wrong.

He did, for the most part, sign them for less than was desired by the players. Each is situational. The fact of the matter is he got all 3 signed at what he felt was the best he could get them signed for, all 3 are on the ice. Because at the end of the day, you, me and everyone else would consider it unacceptable if any of the 3 were not playing hockey right now in what you coined to be a contending year.

So no, I disagree with you. If that's the premise for why dubas is a failure, it's a nitpick argument, and its not the reason the team has failed through the first 20 games.

What is this, essay day?

I don’t have the attention span to read all these mini blogs.

dubas went big on a core group of players.

dubas needed to fill out the roster with good cheap depth players.

of the dozen or whatever minimum salary guys he brought in this year, only 1 paid off. he completely failed there and left himself with no outs to improve depth; unless he trades a big $ deal.
- Tumbleweed

If it's a big money deal that has to go, it's one of Tavares, Matthews, or Marner. While it is opinion, I don't feel Nylanders is valid here, because even without his, you still have 3 contracts over 10 million a year. And I'm pretty sure no other team in the league can say that.

So which of the three is it that goes? We can't fault dubas for not making a choice we wouldn't make ourselves. Because had he made that choice, you are very representative of the crowd that would have blasted him and said it's his fault for trading one of the big 3.

I pick Marner personally...