So... that makes Brett Hull the greatest then?

Gretzy won the Art Ross 10 times. Ovi... once?
Gretz would have won it more but he had Hull, Bossy, Mario and Jagr as his goal-scoring peers.
- Nasty_Duck

He had probably the greatest single goal scoring season statistically but it was a huge outlier even for him. I wouldn't say it makes him the NHL's greatest goal scorer overall, just a great goal scorer who had one stupefyingly ridiculous year.

Art Ross is total points, not goals. Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals 8 times, which is more than any other player in history. (Bobby Hull is next with 7).

Gretzky was obviously the better player overall and better offensively when you consider his elite ability to set up goals by his teammates, but that's not the point of this argument.

258/689 = 37.4% check your math

My whole point is that OV is one dimension, and yes Mario had a lot of points on the PP, but Gretzky had only 22.8% on the PP - both were much more complete players...
- pier6687

Wasn't that the point of this exercise - to say who was best at that one "dimension" - goal scoring?

He had probably the greatest single goal scoring season statistically but it was a huge outlier even for him. I wouldn't say it makes him the NHL's greatest goal scorer overall, just a great goal scorer who had one stupefyingly ridiculous year.

Art Ross is total points, not goals. Ovechkin has led the NHL in goals 8 times, which is more than any other player in history. (Bobby Hull is next with 7).

Gretzky was obviously the better player overall and better offensively when you consider his elite ability to set up goals by his teammates, but that's not the point of this argument.
- Sven22

Oopps ... my bad...

I'd say they are prtetty close. In addition to scoring tons of goals, Gretz spent a huge amount of time setting up others. Imagine if more of that energy was re-directed to goal-scoring?

That's one way to make sure you become #1... take out the competition.

Mind you... Gretyz playing days overlapped with Scott Stevens...
- Nasty_Duck

Ovi would destroy Scott Stevens too

Ovi would have ended Wayne’s career if they played against each other.
- Feds91Stammer

Can you imagine modern day Ovi in 1983? Ridiculous.

Ovi would destroy Scott Stevens too
- Feds91Stammer

Are you placing them in the same time-frame? Ovi using 1990s equipment & training or Stevens using 2000's equipment and training?

Stevens was a wrecking ball. As is Ovi today. And they were/are both dirty.

Can you imagine modern day Ovi in 1983? Ridiculous.
- BINGO!

For some reason people forget how poopty hockey was then. I can even go back and watch early to mid 90s Fedorov highlights and I’m just like (frank) they weren’t that good back then.

Are you placing them in the same time-frame? Ovi using 1990s equipment & training or Stevens using 2000's equipment and training?

Stevens was a wrecking ball. As is Ovi today. And they were/are both dirty.
- Nasty_Duck

Ovi is and will always be a superior being to Stevens.

Are you placing them in the same time-frame? Ovi using 1990s equipment & training or Stevens using 2000's equipment and training?

Stevens was a wrecking ball. As is Ovi today. And they were/are both dirty.
- Nasty_Duck

No, because that's stupid. We have no idea what each would be with each other's training. All we know is them in their own time line with all the advantages/disadvantages they enjoy.

take THAT player you know and plug them in, fully formed as they are, into a different era and see what happens.

For some reason people forget how poopty hockey was then. I can even go back and watch early to mid 90s Fedorov highlights and I’m just like (frank) they weren’t that good back then.
- Feds91Stammer

Still Bingo saying Gretzky is barely a 3rd line guy today is ridiculous. Yes he would not be as good but he'd still be top line talent. You also have to consider Gretzky today would have the benefits that todays NHLers have as well. He's be in better physical shape for example.

You also have to consider goons ruled the NHL. There was so much clutching and grabbing ect. The whole game is different. I dont see it as something thats as easy as saying players are better and goalies were poop

For some reason people forget how poopty hockey was then. I can even go back and watch early to mid 90s Fedorov highlights and I’m just like (frank) they weren’t that good back then.
- Feds91Stammer

Right?

It's astounding goalies made any saves at all back in the 70's/early 80's.

These guys sucked. There were only about a dozen guys playing then that would even garner a look in the NHL today.

Right?

It's astounding goalies made any saves at all back in the 70's/early 80's.

These guys sucked. There were only about a dozen guys playing then that would even garner a look in the NHL today.
- BINGO!

Even Gretzky admits this.

Bossy

Still Bingo saying Gretzky is barely a 3rd line guy today is ridiculous. Yes he would not be as good but he'd still be top line talent. You also have to consider Gretzky today would have the benefits that todays NHLers have as well. He's be in better physical shape for example.

You also have to consider goons ruled the NHL. There was so much clutching and grabbing ect. The whole game is different. I dont see it as something thats as easy as saying players are better and goalies were poop
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

It’s true though.

No, because that's stupid. We have no idea what each would be with each other's training. All we know is them in their own time line with all the advantages/disadvantages they enjoy.

take THAT player you know and plug them in, fully formed as they are, into a different era and see what happens.
- BINGO!

Well then you are comparing different eras - and that's stupid.

Both players had a huge impact (pun intended) in their own eras. Players during Scott Stevens days feared getting hit by him. Just ask Paul Kariya, Eric Lindors, Shane Willis and Ron Francis.

Still Bingo saying Gretzky is barely a 3rd line guy today is ridiculous. Yes he would not be as good but he'd still be top line talent. You also have to consider Gretzky today would have the benefits that todays NHLers have as well. He's be in better physical shape for example.

You also have to consider goons ruled the NHL. There was so much clutching and grabbing ect. The whole game is different. I dont see it as something thats as easy as saying players are better and goalies were poop
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

We don't know what Gretzky would be giving him modern equipment/training/etc. How he would have developed differently. How much different would he be? How much more would his skillset have improved? We can't possibly know that, so we can't use it.

All we know is what he was. Sure, he was incredible relative to his peers, but his peers stunk relative to modern NHL players. if you plugged a Fully Formed 1983 Wayne Gretzky into a modern NHL lineup, where would he fit? I severely doubt top line. He would't be fast enough.

Well then you are comparing different eras - and that's stupid.

Both players had a huge impact (pun intended) in their own eras. Players during Scott Stevens days feared getting hit by him. Just ask Paul Kariya, Eric Lindors, Shane Willis and Ron Francis.
- Nasty_Duck

That's what you have to do.

The modern game is a hundred miles beyond where it was 30 years ago. Comparing guys relative to their peers is unfair to modern players as the average 4th liner today is a better, more refined athlete than the average top line player in 1979.

100% yes. The goaltending pre-butterfly was abysmal. The fact that he can rip off 15 straight 30 goal seasons in this era is beyond remarkable.

That's what you have to do.

The modern game is a hundred miles beyond where it was 30 years ago. Comparing guys relative to their peers is unfair to modern players as the average 4th liner today is a better, more refined athlete than the average top line player in 1979.
- BINGO!

This whole conversation was started about what they accomplished - not what would happen if you took one and plunked him down into a different era with a time machine.

Who is the best Basketball player of all time?

all star John Scott

That's what you have to do.

The modern game is a hundred miles beyond where it was 30 years ago. Comparing guys relative to their peers is unfair to modern players as the average 4th liner today is a better, more refined athlete than the average top line player in 1979.
- BINGO!

Heck Guy Lafleur would burn one after every game and still pot in 40-50, Roy even admitted that training equipment were sometimes glorified coat hangers.

This whole conversation was started about what they accomplished - not what would happen if you took one and plunked him down into a different era with a time machine.

Who is the best Basketball player of all time?
- Nasty_Duck

The question is "Who is the greatest goalscorer of all time?"

Not

"Who scored the most goals?"

Still Bingo saying Gretzky is barely a 3rd line guy today is ridiculous. Yes he would not be as good but he'd still be top line talent. You also have to consider Gretzky today would have the benefits that todays NHLers have as well. He's be in better physical shape for example.

You also have to consider goons ruled the NHL. There was so much clutching and grabbing ect. The whole game is different. I dont see it as something thats as easy as saying players are better and goalies were poop
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

The guy who I would love to see in the no-clutch, no-grab era would be Lindros.

Can you imagine him driving the net, and the only way to stop him is with your body?

Oh Lordy Lordy Lordy, it would be fun to watch.

100% yes. The goaltending pre-butterfly was abysmal. The fact that he can rip off 15 straight 30 goal seasons in this era is beyond remarkable.
- rickyd39

Guy Lafleur scored 30-40 goals a year by skating over the blueline at the boards, and then ripping a shot to the far side of the net.

He wouldn't score a single goal that way today.

This whole conversation was started about what they accomplished - not what would happen if you took one and plunked him down into a different era with a time machine.

Who is the best Basketball player of all time?
- Nasty_Duck

Curly Neil.