I dont think any of the Providence teams will be able to handle Lindros and Kerr down low and infront. Add Barber to the mix and its lights out
- KINGKENZO

Not to say that with Pronger at the point, and Kerr and Lindros, that would be one hell of a pp.

One of the Best Dman in the entire NHL in his heyday? That was quite a crew around that time.

Lets take a look at who was around most of that time during his Flyers stint:

Lidstrom, Leetch, Pronger and MacInnis, Borque, Coffey, Chelios, The Devils guys (Stevens, Daneyko, Niedermayer), Blake, Foote (their Colorado years), Hatcher.

I am probably forgetting some names. He was never one of the top 3 Norris vote-getters.

Don't get me wrong. He was surely top 15. But I don't think he was ever top 5 in any given year.

Was he top 10? I suspect it would be subjective.
- PT21

https://www.hockey-refere...s/voting-1999.html#norris

https://www.hockey-refere...s/voting-2000.html#norris

https://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-1999.html#norris

https://www.hockey-refere...s/voting-2000.html#norris
- MJL

Fair enough. He eked it out into the top 5 those 2 years.

Fair enough. He eked it out into the top 5 those 2 years.
- PT21

He eked it out? Look again! It seems as though your math and your memory is out of whack for both Gagne and Desjardins.

He also made the top 10 3 times.

He eked it out? Look again! It seems as though your math and your memory is out of whack for both Gagne and Desjardins.
- MJL

Sorry Chief, what now? He finished #5 in the Norris for 99 and #4 in 2000. Average finish of 4.5 in his best years.

Thats eking it out in the top 5.

And Bill has already posted that some people, including at least 1 coach, and I believe another, did question Gagne's toughness. So it is your memory of "no one knowledgeable" ever questioning Gagne's toughness that is errant.

You may disagree, and I am not saying Gagne is soft, actually. I think however there is only 1 player in that Quebec team who could handle a very big team like Ontario. And they would have trouble collectively against a heavy forecheck.

Sorry Chief, what now? He finished #5 in the Norris for 99 and #4 in 2000. Average finish of 4.5 in his best years.

Thats eking it out in the top 5.


- PT21

LOL. What silly definition are you using?

Vote totals for 1998/99
5th place Eric Desjardins 91 votes
6th place Scott Stevens 55 votes
A difference of 36 votes

Vote totals for 1999/00
4th place Eric Desjardins 119 votes
5th place Sergei Gonchar 78 votes
A difference of 41 votes

And Bill has already posted that some people, including at least 1 coach, and I believe another, did question Gagne's toughness. So it is your memory of "no one knowledgeable" ever questioning Gagne's toughness that is errant.

You may disagree, and I am not saying Gagne is soft, actually. I think however there is only 1 player in that Quebec team who could handle a very big team like Ontario. And they would have trouble collectively against a heavy forecheck.
- PT21

You stated that a rap on Gagne was that he was soft. He had a 14 year career and over 800 games. Is the best you've got to back that up was that Hitchcock, who was notoriously tough on young players questioned his mental toughness once? My memory is not errant at all. I watched Gagne play in a Flyers uniform for a long time. He was not soft and calling him soft is bullpoop by you or anyone.

It's completely subjective and speculative on what team would beat another. I just remember when a big bad Flyers team met the Detroit Red Wings in the Stanley Cup finals and everyone was picking the Flyers, including me. Their finesse defense won't be able to handle the legion of Doom. The smaller finesse team won 4 games to 0. Team Quebec also has Bernie Parent. So who knows.

LOL. What silly definition are you using?

Vote totals for 1998/99
5th place Eric Desjardins 91 votes
6th place Scott Stevens 55 votes
A difference of 36 votes

Vote totals for 1999/00
4th place Eric Desjardins 119 votes
5th place Sergei Gonchar 78 votes
A difference of 41 votes


- MJL

The one in which 91 is more than 55 and 119 is more than 78, and 5th is 5th and 4th is 4th, and the average of 4th and 5th is 4.5, which is barely less than 5.



By the way, you should have included the 4th place vote getter in 98-99, not the 6th place. It weakens your case, and indicates that just 19 votes swinging from Rico to Scott would have pushed former to 6th place.

You stated that a rap on Gagne was that he was soft.
- MJL

No, I said the team collectively was a little small and soft. I said a rap on Gagne was that he was soft. Some quarters felt so.

It's completely subjective and speculative on what team would beat another.
- MJL

You are kidding!

The one in which 91 is more than 55 and 119 is more than 78, and 5th is 5th and 4th is 4th, and the average of 4th and 5th is 4.5, which is barely less than 5.




- PT21

Averaging out 4 and 5 and coming up with 4.5 and using that as the basis for saying he eked out a top 5 finish makes zero sense. The vote totals, which you were unaware of clearly showed that he did not eke out top 5 finishes in those years. He finished well ahead of the player below him in the voting.

By the way, you should have included the 4th place vote getter in 98-99, not the 6th place. It weakens your case, and indicates that just 19 votes swinging from Rico to Scott would have pushed former to 6th place.


- PT21

You're using something that didn't happen. Looking at the vote totals is factual. Your statement here is fantasy. No reason to include the player who finished ahead of him. Nothing you state here changes the vote totals. It's history. You have no case.

No, I said the team collectively was a little small and soft. I said a rap on Gagne was that he was soft. Some quarters felt so.


- PT21

I know what you said and you were clearly uninformed on Gagne just as you were on how good Desjardins was as a Flyer.

Was Desjardins a franchise Dman? No. Was he a legit #1 from 95 to about 2002? Absolutely. He was clearly one of the top 10 Dmen of the late 90s and he’s second only to Mark Howe on the list of best Flyers Dmen of all time.

Was Desjardins a franchise Dman? No. Was he a legit #1 from 95 to about 2002? Absolutely. He was clearly one of the top 10 Dmen of the late 90s and he’s second only to Mark Howe on the list of best Flyers Dmen of all time.
- BiggE

Yep (space intentional)

Howe



Desjardins
Timonen

Yep (space intentional)

Howe



Desjardins
Timonen
- MJL

Yup pretty much.

Was Desjardins a franchise Dman? No. Was he a legit #1 from 95 to about 2002? Absolutely. He was clearly one of the top 10 Dmen of the late 90s and he’s second only to Mark Howe on the list of best Flyers Dmen of all time.
- BiggE

He was such a good all around d man for a good team.....under appreciated by a lot of fans, but he was a legit # 1 guy for 5-6 years for sure. Still hoping Provorov develops into what Rico was.....that says a lot right there.

Averaging out 4 and 5 and coming up with 4.5 and using that as the basis for saying he eked out a top 5 finish makes zero sense. The vote totals, which you were unaware of clearly showed that he did not eke out top 5 finishes in those years. He finished well ahead of the player below him in the voting.
- MJL

Honestly, that depends.Lets say you were the #8 (wildcard) team in a conference, but well ahead of #9. Did you just make it in to playoffs, or did you get in comfortably?

A reasonable case can be made for the former view.

Btw, your original assertion was that Rico was one of the top D-men in the league. In his very best years, he received a total of 0 first place votes, and 8 second place votes from 360 voters.

I know what you said...
- MJL

Nope.

...and you were clearly uninformed on Gagne just as you were on how good Desjardins was as a Flyer.
- MJL

Nope.

Ciao now.

Honestly, that depends.Lets say you were the #8 (wildcard) team in a conference, but well ahead of #9. Did you just make it in to playoffs, or did you get in comfortably?

A reasonable case can be made for the former view.

Btw, your original assertion was that Rico was one of the top D-men in the league. In his very best years, he received a total of 0 first place votes, and 8 second place votes from 360 voters.


- PT21

Do I really have to explain to you that in the situation of looking at the Norris trophy voting is quite different from a playoff race where only 8 teams make it in? Your analogy is a bad one. Just as bad as your raft analogy. You should quit using analogies. You aren't good at it. That situation does not exist here. Votes are what matter and Desjardins vote totals were well ahead of the next highest finisher. When you finish in the top 5 in Norris trophy voting, you're one of the top defenseman in the league.

No value to your other comments. It's already been established that your comments on both players were incorrect. You can't spin your way out of it.

Can folks finally admit that the Hartnell trade was bad? Seeing him on the hype video reminds me of how much awesome he oozed.
- coffee junkie

Who ever said it was a good hockey trade?

One of the Best Dman in the entire NHL in his heyday? That was quite a crew around that time.

Lets take a look at who was around most of that time during his Flyers stint:

Lidstrom, Leetch, Pronger and MacInnis, Borque, Coffey, Chelios, The Devils guys (Stevens, Daneyko, Niedermayer), Blake, Foote (their Colorado years), Hatcher.

I am probably forgetting some names. He was never one of the top 3 Norris vote-getters.

Don't get me wrong. He was surely top 15. But I don't think he was ever top 5 in any given year.

Was he top 10? I suspect it would be subjective.
- PT21

6 defensemen per team x 28 teams would be 168 not counting healthy scratches, which brings thr actual number close to 200. Top 15 puts him well inside of the top 10% and a few top-5 Norris finishes...yeah, I'd say that makes him "one of the best."

Which 3 flyer players make the team feel the most like the broad street bullies? Even if not by size, but the attitude as well.
Two easy picks for me are TK and laughton. I had to debate myself a little over the third player and I'm still torn
Long term I see Myers having a flyers attitude but I also think jake has it in him too. NAK has it in him too

What 3 would you pick as having the broad street hockey attitude?

Which 3 flyer players make the team feel the most like the broad street bullies? Even if not by size, but the attitude as well.
Two easy picks for me are TK and laughton. I had to debate myself a little over the third player and I'm still torn
Long term I see Myers having a flyers attitude but I also think jake has it in him too. NAK has it in him too

What 3 would you pick as having the broad street hockey attitude?
- sILKAsSINASALO

Chris Stewarr because he can punch people.

Seriously, probably TK, Hagg, and NAK. Hagg because of how he took on Wilson to defend Giroux, that's textbook BSB. NAK has a nonstop motor.

Which 3 flyer players make the team feel the most like the broad street bullies? Even if not by size, but the attitude as well.
Two easy picks for me are TK and laughton. I had to debate myself a little over the third player and I'm still torn
Long term I see Myers having a flyers attitude but I also think jake has it in him too. NAK has it in him too

What 3 would you pick as having the broad street hockey attitude?
- sILKAsSINASALO

Coots: total warrior and the complete style of player that Shero would have loved

Braun: plays through pain and never quits. Gives it all every shift

NAK: never stops hustling, not afraid to mix it up. He’s got a bit of Bob Kelly in him

6 defensemen per team x 28 teams would be 168 not counting healthy scratches, which brings thr actual number close to 200. Top 15 puts him well inside of the top 10% and a few top-5 Norris finishes...yeah, I'd say that makes him "one of the best."
- jmatchett383

But he just eked out those top 5 Norris finishes.

Coots: total warrior and the complete style of player that Shero would have loved

Braun: plays through pain and never quits. Gives it all every shift

NAK: never stops hustling, not afraid to mix it up. He’s got a bit of Bob Kelly in him
- BiggE

I was gonna go with Laughton as a Kelly type.

Ontario hands down should be the winner when you consider points per game, Lindros was the most productive Flyer in history with 1.356 P/G. Tim Kerr is #3 in Flyer history with 1.082 P/G and Bill Barber is #8 with 0.978 P/G and he’s number two in total points in Flyer history.

Pronger, nuff said, although he was older when he was a Flyer, not many defensemen in history have won a Hart trophy.

I was gonna go with Laughton as a Kelly type.
- MJL

Yeah I can see that but NAK has a similar build to the Hound and the way he plays with abandon reminds me of Kelly.

Ontario hands down should be the winner when you consider points per game, Lindros was the most productive Flyer in history with 1.356 P/G. Tim Kerr is #3 in Flyer history with 1.082 P/G and Bill Barber is #8 with 0.978 P/G and he’s number two in total points in Flyer history.

Pronger, nuff said, although he was older when he was a Flyer, not many defensemen in history have won a Hart trophy.
- Dave21Brown

Their only issue is in goal. I think Sweden is at least as good.

Their only issue is in goal. I think Sweden is at least as good.
- jmatchett383

I don’t think he’d face many shots

But you’re right, team Sweden looks pretty good too. I’m calling foul on Quebec though, Giroux is an Ontario kid and Gatineau is essentially a suburb of Ottawa Ontario, although technically in Quebec.