OR...
He is giving the young guys the chance to see what he has first and PROPERLY recognizing that the team isn't a finished product and neither are they.

I am not a huge Dubas fan. He does some things well, but I think he made some bad mistakes also. I find it amazing how quick people are to come up with the worst possible takes on anything Leafs-related.

... I am also pretty sure he doesn't believe Bracco is going to fetch him a saviour on defense.
- Aetherial

That's fair. But who's Dubas trading? He won't give anyone of value up. Teams aren't going to do the Leafs any favours. Chiarelli isn't an NHL GM anymore. I'm honestly curious how Dubas is going to get his team to that next level. They're up against the Cap with holes to fill. I'm not saying it's impossible. But something has to give here. Or else history is likely going to keep repeating itself.

I fully expect Matthews, Marner, Rielly and Nylander to get better as they're all still young players. Tavares is still an elite player. The Hawks kept trying to fill in holes after Toews and Kane got their big contracts with cheap salary guys like Dubas is doing with Mikhayev. It didn't work for Chicago. How will it work for Toronto? The Leafs have too many of the same type of player. Any successful playoff teams needs a good mix of different elements. It's proven with each Cup winner. The Leafs don't have that proper mix right now.

As for Leafs bashing I do find it amusing. Unless you're a Leafs fan, you're not allowed to criticize the team. You're called a Leafs hater. Or you're jealous. Jealous of what exactly? Fans do enjoy piling on the Leafs because guys like Roeper love telling everyone how perfect the roster is without winning anything. I can see both sides. People love to love and hate the Leafs.

Most Leafs fans I know aren't like that. Most fans on the Leafs board are crazy but realistic about their team. Until a non Leafs fan criticizes them that is. Then it's "circle the wagons, us against the world time." As I've said, I don't think the Leafs are that far away from being a legitimate Cup contender. I believe they need to make that one blockbuster trade to put them over the top.

Periphery moves don't move the needle for me. They need a Shanahan for Primeau, Coffey and a 1st like trade. Talking about Free wallet players, no bad contracts and just wait until we have a full lineup doesn't move the needle for me. It's time for Dubas to Go BIG or go home.

That's fair. But who's Dubas trading? He won't give anyone of value up. Teams aren't going to do the Leafs any favours. Chiarelli isn't an NHL GM anymore. I'm honestly curious how Dubas is going to get his team to that next level. They're up against the Cap with holes to fill. I'm not saying it's impossible. But something has to give here. Or else history is likely going to keep repeating itself.
- gergeswillems

Gerges, I'm disappointed in you. The answer is obvious. They need to gut the team of mid-tier guys like Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson. That's $10.1M tied up in guys that don't make a difference. Bring back Nik Pecan for $700K. Tell him to bring two AHL scrubs with him. Then trade some draft picks for another $9M superstar. Maybe a 1D this time? Dubas can just sort guys based on Corsi and make his trade. Not that hard.

Gerges, I'm disappointed in you. The answer is obvious. They need to gut the team of mid-tier guys like Kerfoot, Kapanen, and Johnsson. That's $10.1M tied up in guys that don't make a difference. Bring back Nik Pecan for $700K. Tell him to bring two AHL scrubs with him. Then trade some draft picks for another $9M superstar. Maybe a 1D this time? Dubas can just sort guys based on Corsi and make his trade. Not that hard.
- Kooleus

Tanner is replacing Dubas as Leafs GM? 😂

That's fair. But who's Dubas trading? He won't give anyone of value up. Teams aren't going to do the Leafs any favours. Chiarelli isn't an NHL GM anymore. I'm honestly curious how Dubas is going to get his team to that next level. They're up against the Cap with holes to fill. I'm not saying it's impossible. But something has to give here. Or else history is likely going to keep repeating itself.
- gergeswillems

Couple things...

"Hasn't" and "won't" are two very different things.

Nylander is a perfect example of what is going on. A lot of people were calling for him to trade Nylander, coming off a hold out and a horrible season. There was literally no point in trading Nylander at that point. Holding on to him was a great decision. He took a huge step this year. His value now is much greater.

Also, people go on about how the Leafs are fundamentally flawed and aren't contenders. If that is the case, why trade away a prime, very young, asset for a prayer on defense. They have some defensive prospects they need to get a read on.

That is how Hall for Larsson crap happens.

Leafs fans want them to win now. Other fans seem to think the Leafs window has closed. Both are ridiculous.

Tanner is replacing Dubas as Leafs GM? 😂
- gergeswillems

Tanner believes he is smarter than Dubas.

I think every person I have ever seen post here, including me, would make a terrible GM.

Couple things...

"Hasn't" and "won't" are two very different things.

Nylander is a perfect example of what is going on. A lot of people were calling for him to trade Nylander, coming off a hold out and a horrible season. There was literally no point in trading Nylander at that point. Holding on to him was a great decision. He took a huge step this year.

Also, people go on about how the Leafs are fundamentally flawed and aren't contenders. If that is the case, why trade away a prime very young asset for a a prayer on defense. Also... they have some defensive prospects they need to get a read on.

That is how Hall for Larsson happens.

Leafs fans want them to win now. Other fans think the Leafs window has closed. Both are ridiculous.
- Aetherial

I'm not advocating trading Nylander. He's an excellent player. He's worth his contract. But why are both Kapanen and Johnsson not available? Why is Dubas hoarding talented forwards? It makes no sense.

Of course the Leafs window isn't closed. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. But there's just too many excuses I hear from some of the Leafs fanbase (not everyone). Things like "Well we lost to Boston and they're a top team so there's no shame in losing to them." Well how about beating them? Or "We haven't had our full lineup yet so we can't judge them." How injured were the Pens this season? Missing key players for long stretches. They didn't miss a beat. How many games did Colorado not have McKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog and Makar? Or "If we had Sheldon Keefe all season we'd be competing for first overall." What? So Babcock is blamed for all the losses and get's zero credit for the wins?

Excuses become a self fulfilling prophecy. It's much easier to point the finger than it is to look in the mirror. Leaf fans are generally quick to point out other teams flaws but minimize their own. In a Cap league, even the Best teams have flaws. There's no more super teams like the 2002 Red Wings.

Caps fans used to make excuses when they kept being eliminated by the Pens. Until the Caps finally slayed the dragon and went on to win the Cup. The Leafs remind me of the Red Wings from 1993-1996. They really do. High end skill but with too many skill players wanting the puck and refusing to play 2 way hockey. Great in the regular season but bounced in the playoffs by lesser skilled but more complete teams.

Red Wings fans made all the usual excuses too. It's the refs fault. The League is against us. We didn't get the puck luck. No one cares. Believe me. I'll never forget watching the Red Wings losing to the Leafs in 93. Or choking against the Sharks in 94. Being swept by the Devils in 95. Or winning 62 games in 96 only to be eliminated by the AVS. Most Wings fans blamed everyone but the team. Excuses galore. Trade Yzerman. Trade Fedorov. You can't win in the playoffs with Russian players. It was sickening.

I used to hear Leaf fans calling Steve Yzerman a choker. I hated it. I knew the type of player and leader he was but I couldn't argue it. He hadn't won anything. Then he won 3 Cups and became known as a great leader. So what changed? Sure Scotty Bowman gets credit for making him a 2 way player and teaching him how to win. But the character and heart was always there even when he was facing the music after another playoff choke.

Tanner believes he is smarter than Dubas.

I think every person I have ever seen post here, including me, would make a terrible GM.
- Aetherial

I agree with both points.

Yeah, Dubas' plan is for Mikheyev to become Hossa and the fact that he hasn't traded away any 22 (23?) year old stars means he won't trade anything of value.

I always have fun here with Gerges, but there were a lot of hot takes in that post.


...Oh, and if you get a chance watch the documentary "When They See Us" on Netflix. It's really well done!
- Aetherial

I did see that documentary. It made me sad if I'm being honest. There's few things worse in this world than blatant racism.

I'm not advocating trading Nylander. He's an excellent player. He's worth his contract. But why are both Kapanen and Johnsson not available? Why is Dubas hoarding talented forwards? It makes no sense.

Of course the Leafs window isn't closed. Anyone who believes that is ignorant. But there's just too many excuses I hear from some of the Leafs fanbase (not everyone). Things like "Well we lost to Boston and they're a top team so there's no shame in losing to them." Well how about beating them? Or "We haven't had our full lineup yet so we can't judge them." How injured were the Pens this season? Missing key players for long stretches. They didn't miss a beat. How many games did Colorado not have McKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog and Makar? Or "If we had Sheldon Keefe all season we'd be competing for first overall." What? So Babcock is blamed for all the losses and get's zero credit for the wins?

Excuses become a self fulfilling prophecy. It's much easier to point the finger than it is to look in the mirror. Leaf fans are generally quick to point out other teams flaws but minimize their own. In a Cap league, even the Best teams have flaws. There's no more super teams like the 2002 Red Wings.

Caps fans used to make excuses when they kept being eliminated by the Pens. Until the Caps finally slayed the dragon and went on to win the Cup. The Leafs remind me of the Red Wings from 1993-1996. They really do. High end skill but with too many skill players wanting the puck and refusing to play 2 way hockey. Great in the regular season but bounced in the playoffs by lesser skilled but more complete teams.

Red Wings fans made all the usual excuses too. It's the refs fault. The League is against us. We didn't get the puck luck. No one cares. Believe me. I'll never forget watching the Red Wings losing to the Leafs in 93. Or choking against the Sharks in 94. Being swept by the Devils in 95. Or winning 62 games in 96 only to be eliminated by the AVS. Most Wings fans blamed everyone but the team. Excuses galore. Trade Yzerman. Trade Fedorov. You can't win in the playoffs with Russian players. It was sickening.

I used to hear Leaf fans calling Steve Yzerman a choker. I hated it. I knew the type of player and leader he was but I couldn't argue it. He hadn't won anything. Then he won 3 Cups and became known as a great leader. So what changed? Sure Scotty Bowman gets credit for making him a 2 way player and teaching him how to win. But the character and heart was always there even when he was facing the music after another playoff choke.
- gergeswillems

Leafs fans spend at least half their time pointing out the team's flaws. Some are definitely slow to recognize reality that the team is flawed.

It is tough to argue against the team not having the right balance and/or is missing something. They seem fundamentally flawed to me. I don't know if it is grit, or character, or conditioning, or they collectively just don't give a poop. Or, it could be that they had worst in the league backup and Ander7en has been average at best most of the year, it could even be that they have not had a full lineup for even one game this year. I think it is all that, and the core is very young. They just don't get it yet. They may never get it. I don't like what I see out of them so far, but too soon to write them off I think.

I did see that documentary. It made me sad if I'm being honest. There's few things worse in this world than blatant racism.
- gergeswillems

I found it infuriating. I wanted the cops and the DA thrown in jail. The last part of the documentary was heart-breaking.

The story is sickening. That's why it needs to be told.

Leafs fans spend at least half their time pointing out the team's flaws. Some are definitely slow to recognize reality that the team is flawed.

It is tough to argue against the team not having the right balance and/or is missing something. They seem fundamentally flawed to me. I don't know if it is grit, or character, or conditioning, or they collectively just don't give a poop. Or, it could be that they had worst in the league backup and Ander7en has been average at best most of the year, it could even be that they have not had a full lineup for even one game this year. I think it is all that, and the core is very young. They just don't get it yet. They may never get it. I don't like what I see out of them so far, but too soon to write them off I think.
- Aetherial

Any team would love to have the high end talent the Leafs have. There's alot to like about the Leafs. What bothered me the most is how quickly the team gave up on Babcock. I know he wore out his welcome in Toronto. It also happened when he was in Detroit. But to see a team sabotage itself because they hated the coach rubbed me the wrong way.

I realize Babs is an A hole. We all know what he made a young Mitch Marner do. But it was like, they get Babs fired, promote Keefe, and everything is going to be perfect. It's all Babcock's fault! The team has no flaws! It was Babs all along!

Then the Leafs win a few games. The players are happy. But then the novelty wears off. Keefe can't get his players to consistently play 2 way hockey. The Leafs have 3 consecutive years of playoff experience. Shouldn't they collectively be farther ahead in their development by now? Or is it reasonable to still preach patience and hope/expect that it clicks for them?

Is it a character issue? Or a lack of balance issue? Both? The Leafs are an enigma to me. Like Sergei Fedorov. He could look like the best player in the NHL one night and then be Mr. Invisible the next. He used to drive me nuts. I just wanted the consistency.

I found it infuriating. I wanted the cops and the DA thrown in jail. The last part of the documentary was heart-breaking.

The story is sickening. That's why it needs to be told.
- Aetherial

You're right. When that kid was getting beaten up by that coward cop, I wanted to beat the Living F out of him.

Any team would love to have the high end talent the Leafs have. There's alot to like about the Leafs. What bothered me the most is how quickly the team gave up on Babcock. I know he wore out his welcome in Toronto. It also happened when he was in Detroit. But to see a team sabotage itself because they hated the coach rubbed me the wrong way.

I realize Babs is an A hole. We all know what he made a young Mitch Marner do. But it was like, they get Babs fired, promote Keefe, and everything is going to be perfect. It's all Babcock's fault! The team has no flaws! It was Babs all along!

Then the Leafs win a few games. The players are happy. But then the novelty wears off. Keefe can't get his players to consistently play 2 way hockey. The Leafs have 3 consecutive years of playoff experience. Shouldn't they collectively be farther ahead in their development by now? Or is it reasonable to still preach patience and hope/expect that it clicks for them?

Is it a character issue? Or a lack of balance issue? Both? The Leafs are an enigma to me. Like Sergei Fedorov. He could look like the best player in the NHL one night and then be Mr. Invisible the next. He used to drive me nuts. I just wanted the consistency.
- gergeswillems

Quitting on Babcock was a symptom of whatever the problem is, although it sounds like he really did need to go. It will be interesting to see where/if he lands next.

You're right. When that kid was getting beaten up by that coward cop, I wanted to beat the Living F out of him.
- gergeswillems

It is also the ultimate tale of how things can work out when least expected. That last prison transfer turned out to be hell, but if that didn't happen, they may never have been exonerated.

Quitting on Babcock was a symptom of whatever the problem is, although it sounds like he really did need to go. It will be interesting to see where/if he lands next.
- Aetherial

Babs was a lame duck head coach. We all knew Dubas wanted his boy Keefe behind the bench. Babs did too. Shanny delayed it and eventually axed him. It's funny how when Babs arrived in Toronto, he was like Caesar entering Rome as it's conquering hero. Then the Leafs players and fans stabbed him in the back like Caesar was during the Ides of March. Et tu, Babs? I'm babbling. I'm going to bed. 😂

Tanner, great response on the Krouse question. I would expect the same kind of response from Trump if asked. You know the guy you hate and think you're so different than. You are the least qualified person to write on this site. Why don't you watch hockey James? Do you just try to prove you don't need to watch to be a writer on a site? Anyways, You are awful. I hope you start smoking again real soon. So you won't be such a big, Fat baby.

I've been to tons of Leafs games actually. Just for the record. I also rent an extremely nice mansion (I mean if we're just randomly bragging).
- James_Tanner

The sarcasm is funny. Tanner watching a game.

OR...
He is giving the young guys the chance to see what he has first and PROPERLY recognizing that the team isn't a finished product and neither are they.

I am not a huge Dubas fan. He does some things well, but I think he made some bad mistakes also. I find it amazing how quick people are to come up with the worst possible takes on anything Leafs-related.

... I am also pretty sure he doesn't believe Bracco is going to fetch him a saviour on defense.
- Aetherial

The bottom line is that the Leafs have a tremendous base to build on. A few key moves will have them right there. Difficult with the cap situation but not impossible.

The bottom line is that the Leafs have a tremendous base to build on. A few key moves will have them right there. Difficult with the cap situation but not impossible.
- MJL

And, truthfully. This pandemic induced stoppage probably hurts the Leafs more than most.
1. IF...league offers teams a buy-out, Leafs have little to buy out to help them create room. many teams have 7-8-9 million dollar guys they can shed. Leafs MAYBE buy out a 4 million guy or something, but the Cap relief will be minimal.
2. Cap WILL NOT increase as expected. In fact, it will increase very little, if at all. With 40 million tied up in FOUR guys, the Leafs NEEDED as much increase as possible to work on the rest of the roster. With this stoppage, Dubas will find it harder than ever to roster any depth behind that 40 million.
3. FA Barrie this year, FA Anderson next year...and I think FA Reilly the year after. A team already challenged defensively has to address each of these issues BEFORE improving on the rest of the team. Challenging. Barrie not great, not even REALLY good, but still not easy to replace at the same cost. Not a lot out there on the FA list that I see. Dubas will be hard pressed to improve much while keeping his "core".

Now, all that said, the Leafs offensive core is incredible. They are in great shape on that front. I believe if Dubas moves one of the big guys and can obtain a couple of solid pieces this team MIGHT be front-runners for a Cup. I just think if he refuses to do so....it will be really, really tough to improve much under the cap restraints I believe he will find himself in.

And, truthfully. This pandemic induced stoppage probably hurts the Leafs more than most.
1. IF...league offers teams a buy-out, Leafs have little to buy out to help them create room. many teams have 7-8-9 million dollar guys they can shed. Leafs MAYBE buy out a 4 million guy or something, but the Cap relief will be minimal.
2. Cap WILL NOT increase as expected. In fact, it will increase very little, if at all. With 40 million tied up in FOUR guys, the Leafs NEEDED as much increase as possible to work on the rest of the roster. With this stoppage, Dubas will find it harder than ever to roster any depth behind that 40 million.
3. FA Dillon this year, FA Anderson next year...and I think FA Reilly the year after. A team already challenged defensively has to address each of these issues BEFORE improving on the rest of the team. Challenging. Dillon not great, not even REALLY good, but still not easy to replace at the same cost. Not a lot out there on the FA list that I see. Dubas will be hard pressed to improve much while keeping his "core".

Now, all that said, the Leafs offensive core is incredible. They are in great shape on that front. I believe if Dubas moves one of the big guys and can obtain a couple of solid pieces this team MIGHT be front-runners for a Cup. I just think if he refuses to do so....it will be really, really tough to improve much under the cap restraints I believe he will find himself in.
- hawk35

Dillon? You mean Barrie, right?

Dillon? You mean Barrie, right?
- gergeswillems

I sure did....drunk brain. Corrected!