It's insane people dare to suggest he isn't leaps and bounds above everyone who ever played the sport.

Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Michael Phelps, Lance Armstrong (yep), Serena Williams might be my top-5 GOAT athletes.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Gretzky???

Every player wants that though
- jdfitz77

yup, but when you've played your entire career on a team that not only has missed the playoffs, but had also finished dead last in three of those seasons, it might have a little more meaning

I know you aren’t interested in the advanced stats but he and Montour had a ridiculous on ice sv%. which helped his +/-
- sbroads24

Or they were keeping shots to the outside so they were easy saves?

yup, but when you've played your entire career on a team that not only has missed the playoffs, but had also finished dead last in three of those seasons, it might have a little more meaning
- Michael Pachla

Keyword: “might”
He might also love it here & it would be that much sweeter to have that success here since he’s gone through all the bad times to get to it

Or they were keeping shots to the outside so they were easy saves?
- jdfitz77

They weren’t though. They bleeded shots and chances as a pair

I know you aren’t interested in the advanced stats but he and Montour had a ridiculous on ice sv%. which helped his +/-
- sbroads24

So you're saying that with Risto and Montour the goalies played better. I don't understand how that is a bad thing. Is it because the goalies played better, the other teams didn't have as many high danger shots, or just a coincidence?

in what way?
- Michael Pachla

Our below average goalies weren’t going to continue to have a .941 sv% while they were on the ice with the amount of chances and shots they are on for

didn't know that as I really don't follow cycling either...however, do we know to what extent to which peds had an effect on the individuals?
- Michael Pachla

I'm not sure we can ever know, but he still won it year after year as a conditioned athlete who trained extensively for the race. So he popped some PEDS before the race, athletes have been doing this for decades. Testing got better, not the PEDs.

They weren’t though. They bleeded shots and chances as a pair
- sbroads24

High danger chances?

Gretzky???
- jdfitz77

Orr

So you're saying that with Risto and Montour the goalies played better. I don't understand how that is a bad thing. Is it because the goalies played better, the other teams didn't have as many high danger shots, or just a coincidence?
- adambuffalo

It’s not a bad thing. Just something that isn’t sustainable

Orr
- BeadyEyedDouche

Come on...

High danger chances?
- jdfitz77

High danger chances against per 60

1. Montour
2. Dahlin
3. Ristolainen

Edit - being #1 is bad

Our below average goalies weren’t going to continue to have a .941 sv% while they were on the ice with the amount of chances and shots they are on for
- sbroads24

interesting...do we have a shot-against breakdown?

U were saying...?
- jdfitz77

I speak when spoken too.

Keyword: “might”
He might also love it here & it would be that much sweeter to have that success here since he’s gone through all the bad times to get to it
- jdfitz77

he watched ror leave and...well...you know the rest

I'm not sure we can ever know, but he still won it year after year as a conditioned athlete who trained extensively for the race. So he popped some PEDS before the race, athletes have been doing this for decades. Testing got better, not the PEDs.
- BeadyEyedDouche

it's cheating...sorry...i'm a stiff

Gretzky???
- jdfitz77

I think the subject of Gretzky is a lot more complicated than "he's the best hockey player of all-time".

As far as best athletes goes, he doesn't make my top-10. I'd put Ichiro Suzuki right outside the top-5. What he did in Japan before the MLB, as well as what he accomplished in the MLB, is astounding.

Wayne Gretzky unfortunately came into a league that was archaic in it's athletic prowess compared to the other big-4 leagues in North America. You simply cannot gauge him properly because he is such an anomaly. Way ahead of his time, he changed the game...

But he shot the puck at 5'5" goalies in pee-wee pads who had the agility of a sloth for the majority of his career.

What Mario accomplished is much more impressive, IMO. FFS, I don't even think Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all-time, it's Hasek, and Hasek was an absolute freak athlete.

As far as a list of athletes goes, Gretzky isn't even in my top-10, sorry not sorry.

he watched ror leave and...well...you know the rest
- Michael Pachla

Well by that logic Jack & Sam & whoever else wants out too

You’re drawing a conclusion that might be true,
but it’s a reach

Skinner has a poor partial season and you're equating him with Cheechoo to make your point?
- Michael Pachla

No, I’m just saying technically speaking he averages 29 goals a season, and has never had back to back 30 goal seasons.

He’s elite at generating chances, however only 16 of those chances have gone in the last 82 games he’s played wearing the Sabres sweater.

The guy got hot for two months and scored on a 70 goal pace through 30 games last year and has been essentially below average since.

High danger chances against per 60

1. Montour
2. Dahlin
3. Ristolainen

Edit - being #1 is bad
- sbroads24

And were the numbers significantly higher than the other defensemen,
or are we just not great as a team?

Also, quality of opponents they were on the ice against?

it's cheating...sorry...i'm a stiff
- Michael Pachla

Better put an asterisk next to every Ice Hockey stat ever, since they basically inhale cocaine - and you are not going to sit here and tell me that drug isn't performance enhancing.

They used to think Gatorade was cheating, too.

HGH, testosterone, adrenaline, steroids... If you think sports have been clean throughout history, I have news for you, Pach, and you ain't gonna like it...

If you aren't cheating, you aren't winning.

High danger chances?
- jdfitz77

I remember a coach saying that they would let the other team take all the shots they want when they're just lofting it at the net. Some people just can't comprehend that though, and think all shots on net are equal.
Seems like all the dmen we get played better with their previous team. Maybe they need more responsible forwards rather than just keep trading dmen. If Risto got traded to a good team he could get Norris votes (no, I'm not saying he is a potential Norris winner) and the fans would love him.

No, I’m just saying technically speaking he averages 29 goals a season, and has never had back to back 30 goal seasons.

He’s elite at generating chances, however only 16 of those chances have gone in the last 82 games he’s played wearing the Sabres sweater.

The guy got hot for two months and scored on a 70 goal pace through 30 games last year and has been essentially below average since.
- Pegullaville

Right, so he got incredibly hot, then went incredibly cold.

He’s had a weird streak of going white hot, and ice cold.

He’s a 30 goal guy. Not 40 (unless with Eichel) and not the 15 goal guy this year

And were the numbers significantly higher than the other defensemen,
or are we just not great as a team?

Also, quality of opponents they were on the ice against?
- jdfitz77

The issue is that Risto/Montour we’re steadily trending in the wrong direction.

Ristolainen started the year well in terms of suppressing chances/shots. It’s progressively gotten worse