I think the subject of Gretzky is a lot more complicated than "he's the best hockey player of all-time".

As far as best athletes goes, he doesn't make my top-10. I'd put Ichiro Suzuki right outside the top-5. What he did in Japan before the MLB, as well as what he accomplished in the MLB, is astounding.

Wayne Gretzky unfortunately came into a league that was archaic in it's athletic prowess compared to the other big-4 leagues in North America. You simply cannot gauge him properly because he is such an anomaly. Way ahead of his time, he changed the game...

But he shot the puck at 5'5" goalies in pee-wee pads who had the agility of a sloth for the majority of his career.

What Mario accomplished is much more impressive, IMO. FFS, I don't even think Gretzky is the greatest hockey player of all-time, it's Hasek, and Hasek was an absolute freak athlete.

As far as a list of athletes goes, Gretzky isn't even in my top-10, sorry not sorry.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Dude, Gretzky did sooooo much more scoring than his contemporaries... including Lemieux

You’re gonna discount the goalies Gretzky shot against, but it’s ok for Lemieux?
You’re not gonna take i to account the severely lesser talent in the Japan league for Icharo

Idk that anyone dominated his sport like he did
Or even came close

He’s got more assists, than anyone else has points
And he didn’t have to play 72years like Gordon Howe to do it

No, I’m just saying technically speaking he averages 29 goals a season, and has never had back to back 30 goal seasons.

He’s elite at generating chances, however only 16 of those chances have gone in the last 82 games he’s played wearing the Sabres sweater.

The guy got hot for two months and scored on a 70 goal pace through 30 games last year and has been essentially below average since.
- Pegullaville

points taken, however:

in the nine years prior to him signing that lucrative, long-term deal, only nine players in the league scored more goals than Skinner’s (and Jonathan Toews’) 244 goals:

Ovi--389
Tavares--295
Kane—280
Pavelski—272
Seguin—262
Marchand—262
Kessel—261
Benn—259
Perry—254


and of those nine, only three scored more even-strength goals than Skinner’s 191:

Ovi—233
Tavares—210
Kane—209


and, during that span, no player in the NHL scored more goals/60 5v5 than Skinner’s 1.11...Ovi was No. 2 at 1.10

Dude, Gretzky did sooooo much more scoring than his contemporaries... including Lemieux

You’re gonna discount the goalies Gretzky shot against, but it’s ok for Lemieux?
You’re not gonna take i to account the severely lesser talent in the Japan league for Icharo

Idk that anyone dominated his sport like he did
Or even came close

He’s got more assists, than anyone else has points
And he didn’t have to play 72years like Gordon Howe to do it
- jdfitz77

*yawns

Better put an asterisk next to every Ice Hockey stat ever, since they basically inhale cocaine - and you are not going to sit here and tell me that drug isn't performance enhancing.

They used to think Gatorade was cheating, too.

HGH, testosterone, adrenaline, steroids... If you think sports have been clean throughout history, I have news for you, Pach, and you ain't gonna like it...

If you aren't cheating, you aren't winning.
- BeadyEyedDouche

I don't think Jordan was on anything...don't think hank aaron was on anything...the babe liked to drink, so did mantle...rose liked to gamble...not sure jim brown was into peds or cocaine and i'd hazard to guess that howe, orr, gretzky and lemeiux didn't do that stuff either

The issue is that Risto/Montour we’re steadily trending in the wrong direction.

Ristolainen started the year well in terms of suppressing chances/shots. It’s progressively gotten worse
- sbroads24

Bc Risto played worse?
Or the whole team did

And don’t sit here & give analytics stats without giving all of the ones relevant to the situation

This is why i say u cherry-pick

It’s not just shots/chances per 60
It’s ALSO:
-high danger chances (most relevant, right?)
-who were the forwards out with them?
-zone starts
-quality of opponents against

You gotta give the whole picture here dude
And u gotta talk about how ALL OF THAT compares to the other defensemen,
not just 1 or 2 of the stats

If you’re gonna say that kinda stuff with such certainty...
then u gotta show the blueprints,
not just a rough sketch

*yawns
- BeadyEyedDouche

Yeah,
and players are doing coke on the benches to enhance their performance
Gtfoh with that

points taken, however:

in the nine years prior to him signing that lucrative, long-term deal, only nine players in the league scored more goals than Skinner’s (and Jonathan Toews’) 244 goals:

Ovi--389
Tavares--295
Kane—280
Pavelski—272
Seguin—262
Marchand—262
Kessel—261
Benn—259
Perry—254


and of those nine, only three scored more even-strength goals than Skinner’s 191:

Ovi—233
Tavares—210
Kane—209


and, during that span, no player in the NHL scored more goals/60 5v5 than Skinner’s 1.11...Ovi was No. 2 at 1.10
- Michael Pachla

Which are perfectly valid points, Skinner is a very good hockey player.

My issue is, he is here for another 7 years after this and when does his play start to decline ? The only production that matters now is what he does at $9M per year not what he’s done wearing a Hurricanes sweater. So far ? Not so good

He can put the puck in the net at 5v5 but the whole package suggests that he is not much of a playmaker, contributes nothing to special teams, nor is he effective in his own zone (hence why I’m sure he made his way into Kreugers dog house)

Is Skinner worth $3.5M dollars more then a Jason Zucker whom has been available for 2 years also ?

There is no doubt that Jeff Skinner is the better hockey player, however in a hard cap world I find it hard to believe the Return on Investment he provides at that cap hit is worth it.

I respect your opinion though and will gladly wear the hat if he produces elite offensive numbers throughout the whole contract and becomes a clutch playoff performer.

Cozens being a high end centre off the hop will help.

How can I ?

I regret to inform you that I am not Jason Botterill, nor am I a player agent.

Skinner is only here because he got the 8th year and $10M more then he would have gotten anywhere else.

So I’m sure if Botts were to over pay and start handing term like that to everyone we could sign anybody.

Or, you can draft well and make smart hockey deals and sign guys that could fill a 3rd line role instead of overpaying for the likes of Okposo and Skinner. Really not hard to see why we are where we are today.
- Pegullaville

The rangers were going to pay him 9.5

points taken, however:

in the nine years prior to him signing that lucrative, long-term deal, only nine players in the league scored more goals than Skinner’s (and Jonathan Toews’) 244 goals:

Ovi--389
Tavares--295
Kane—280
Pavelski—272
Seguin—262
Marchand—262
Kessel—261
Benn—259
Perry—254


and of those nine, only three scored more even-strength goals than Skinner’s 191:

Ovi—233
Tavares—210
Kane—209


and, during that span, no player in the NHL scored more goals/60 5v5 than Skinner’s 1.11...Ovi was No. 2 at 1.10
- Michael Pachla

Paying someone on a contract for what they did and not what they will do is the dumbest thing you can do.

It might be ok for a couple years if you surround that player with superstars but will hurt you team long term. And to sign skinner for 8 years?? Should of been fired on the spot

The rangers were going to pay him 9.5
- gerbe75pts

Should of let them

Yeah,
and players are doing coke on the benches to enhance their performance
Gtfoh with that
- jdfitz77

🙄 They at least go back into the room first...

Yeah,
and players are doing coke on the benches to enhance their performance
Gtfoh with that
- jdfitz77

You didn't get the memo, apparently.

Which are perfectly valid points, Skinner is a very good hockey player.

My issue is, he is here for another 7 years after this and when does his play start to decline ? The only production that matters now is what he does at $9M per year not what he’s done wearing a Hurricanes sweater. So far ? Not so good

He can put the puck in the net at 5v5 but the whole package suggests that he is not much of a playmaker, contributes nothing to special teams, nor is he effective in his own zone (hence why I’m sure he made his way into Kreugers dog house)

Is Skinner worth $3.5M dollars more then a Jason Zucker whom has been available for 2 years also ?

There is no doubt that Jeff Skinner is the better hockey player, however in a hard cap world I find it hard to believe the Return on Investment he provides at that cap hit is worth it.

I respect your opinion though and will gladly wear the hat if he produces elite offensive numbers throughout the whole contract and becomes a clutch playoff performer.

Cozens being a high end centre off the hop will help.
- Pegullaville

They also gave up a lot more for Zucker

You didn't get the memo, apparently.
- BeadyEyedDouche

I guess I’m just not privy to the kind of intel u get Beady

I guess I’m just not privy to the kind of intel u get Beady
- jdfitz77

The worst kept secret of the NHL is it's widespread cocaine abuse for going on 40+ years now.

The "Cocaine Cowboys" of the 1990's right a bell?

You think Ali never blew a line?

Here's another secret: Drugs are expensive. Rich people have money. Drugs are fun. Rich people like to have fun. Rich people like to spend money. Rich people are just like us, they like to have fun and spend money and do drugs.

Ever been drunk at work, Fitz? High? Bumped a line?

They do it at work too, dude. Just. Like. Us.

They wait til intermission to snort coke, btw, they don't do it on the bench seriously? Cameras everywhere.

Bc Risto played worse?
Or the whole team did

And don’t sit here & give analytics stats without giving all of the ones relevant to the situation

This is why i say u cherry-pick

It’s not just shots/chances per 60
It’s ALSO:
-high danger chances (most relevant, right?)
-who were the forwards out with them?
-zone starts
-quality of opponents against

You gotta give the whole picture here dude
And u gotta talk about how ALL OF THAT compares to the other defensemen,
not just 1 or 2 of the stats

If you’re gonna say that kinda stuff with such certainty...
then u gotta show the blueprints,
not just a rough sketch
- jdfitz77

Some "high danger" chances are much more highly dangerous than others. Unless I'm mistaken, a high danger chance is determined solely by from where the shot originated, with no consideration given to if it's a wide open guy for a one timer, or a guy with two defenders mauling him, Or if it's off a rebound or a breakaway or any differing circumstances such as those. It's not a useless stat, but it seems pretty flawed if it is solely determined by spot of the shot's origin. It needs to be further broken down considering the other factors surrounding the shot.

The worst kept secret of the NHL is it's widespread cocaine abuse for going on 40+ years now.

The "Cocaine Cowboys" of the 1990's right a bell?

You think Ali never blew a line?

Here's another secret: Drugs are expensive. Rich people have money. Drugs are fun. Rich people like to have fun. Rich people like to spend money. Rich people are just like us, they like to have fun and spend money and do drugs.

Ever been drunk at work, Fitz? High? Bumped a line?

They do it at work too, dude. Just. Like. Us.

They wait til intermission to snort coke, btw, they don't do it on the bench seriously? Cameras everywhere.
- BeadyEyedDouche

Beady, I’m just gonna let ya have it
Don’t have it in me to debate your nonsense

Some "high danger" chances are much more highly dangerous than others. Unless I'm mistaken, a high danger chance is determined solely by from where the shot originated, with no consideration given to if it's a wide open guy for a one timer, or a guy with two defenders mauling him, Or if it's off a rebound or a breakaway or any differing circumstances such as those. It's not a useless stat, but it seems pretty flawed if it is solely determined by spot of the shot's origin. It needs to be further broken down considering the other factors surrounding the shot.
- Ratsreign

That’s true too
It’s frustrating when ppl take such an incomplete stat & then act like it’s the gospel way to determine how good/bad “player x” is

It’s always incomplete
And much more complicated

Not to mention all the things u can’t measure

didn't know that as I really don't follow cycling either...however, do we know to what extent to which peds had an effect on the individuals?
- Michael Pachla

It was basically the entirety of every cycling race for more than a decade that was on PED's. Way more than just the top 10.

PED's did what they do for most professional athletes: they make the average player good, the good great, and the great into all time greats.

I remember a coach saying that they would let the other team take all the shots they want when they're just lofting it at the net. Some people just can't comprehend that though, and think all shots on net are equal.
Seems like all the dmen we get played better with their previous team. Maybe they need more responsible forwards rather than just keep trading dmen. If Risto got traded to a good team he could get Norris votes (no, I'm not saying he is a potential Norris winner) and the fans would love him.
- adambuffalo

Who would give him Norris votes? I fail to see that ever being the case. He's the definition of big talent, absolutely zero hockey IQ.

All you fantasy footballers, if you’re going to beat the Mastermind 3ER, u better be paying attention to this kind of stuff. Hey fellas, this is what you work all off season for. This is why you lift all them weights. This is why you do all of that poop.

https://profootballtalk.n...nsive-rookie-of-the-year/

Some "high danger" chances are much more highly dangerous than others. Unless I'm mistaken, a high danger chance is determined solely by from where the shot originated, with no consideration given to if it's a wide open guy for a one timer, or a guy with two defenders mauling him, Or if it's off a rebound or a breakaway or any differing circumstances such as those. It's not a useless stat, but it seems pretty flawed if it is solely determined by spot of the shot's origin. It needs to be further broken down considering the other factors surrounding the shot.
- Ratsreign

I believe all of the above is accurate.

The reason they use shot location as the determinant factor is that is tracked without having to watch the game and manually chart the additional factors you mentioned. You'd need an entire staff of people to track games visually to capture everything you mentioned.

Orr
- BeadyEyedDouche

watched a little of the bruin flyers series on nbc sports tonight


so effortless the way he played, and always in the right position

Not to mention all the things u can’t measure
- jdfitz77

which IMO an issue with 75% of our roster

Orr
- BeadyEyedDouche

Gretzky was better than Orr.

However, the gap between Gretzky and Orr was a lot less than the gap between Jordan and anyone you want to compare him to in his era.