Let's switch to problem solving mode.

Trade him to the Devils for all three of their first round picks this year and Nico Hischier; or

Trade him to Ottawa for all three of their first round picks and Chris Tierney.
- kingcong39

That's not enough and we should do jack a favor and send him to a contender

That's not enough and we should do jack a favor and send him to a contender
- GERBE!!!75PTS

The Ottawa deal is not enough? Wow.

(frank) me! How did I never see that Thanks!

As for the bolded, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to firmly disagree. I think framing a soft-deployment guy like him as a #4 is wrong- especially since was 5th in EV TOI/gm and 6th in overall TOI/gm. I'm unconvinced by a guy who only has success in a limited niche and, even then, underperformed in that niche, This is only made worse when he's paid almost 4mil. He's a lesser Matt Benning and we pay him under 2mil.

However, I realize this is often a matter that won't be resolved by hammering away forever. We value different measures of efficacy and that's alright. Thanks for your insight on the matter!
- MaximumBone

lol no worries! Fwiw, im projecting he'd be solid as a #4 (like 50 and 50 in possession and xg share), his usage has been so extreme on the sabres it's hard to really know.

It's also hard to know because the Sabres were a very dull/defensive team last year. That's why McCabe looked like Hjalmarsson, better suited for that style of hockey compared to Miller, Montour, Dahlin.

If you were him, or especially his agent, why sign a long term deal at any point in the next half decade or more unless it's a disgusting overpayment?
- kingcong39

Again, that’s fine
Leaves more years for the Cap to go up
Thus, making it easier to afford his eventual big pay increase

Miller sucks, Scandella sucks. Miller sucks more in the defensive zone, Scandella sucks more in the offensive zone.

The big key with Risto is getting his minutes down, which Krueger actually accomplished. He's high-end 2nd pairing minutes(36th among D-men) instead of high-end 1st pairing(4th and 9th in 17-18, and 18-19 respectively).
- Wetbandit1

Difference being that having Scandella in the line-up instead of Miller this current season (not beyond because 3.275 x 5 is crazy) very likely would've been the difference between being in the play-in round and being where you are now.

This is only made more worse by the fact that Scandella carried his success to the very team right ahead of you and positively contributed to their 5-on-5 goal differential (14-9) likely reinforcing the current difference between your two teams in the standings.

I realize this can easily come across as the "victory lap" kind of thing mentioned earlier, but I truly don't intend it that way. I'm only trying to understand what Botteril was thinking, how you guys view it, and then determine for myself if my initial lean towards "maybe Botteril should be fired" is fair or not.

lol no worries! Fwiw, im projecting he'd be solid as a #4 (like 50 and 50 in possession and xg share), his usage has been so extreme on the sabres it's hard to really know.

It's also hard to know because the Sabres were a very dull/defensive team last year. That's why McCabe looked like Hjalmarsson, better suited for that style of hockey compared to Miller, Montour, Dahlin.
- Michael Ghofrani

Brightside, Risto did pretty well for himself w/ lesser minutes, Dahlin showed well (though in softened minutes) and Jokiharju was a (frank)ing steal from Chicago

In case I forgot to come back and say it after singing his praises when the trade was made, I knew my boy wouldn't disappoint

You can't figure it out ?
- SABRES 89

player x stinks

Brightside, Risto did pretty well for himself w/ lesser minutes, Dahlin showed well (though in softened minutes) and Jokiharju was a (frank)ing steal from Chicago

In case I forgot to come back and say it after singing his praises when the trade was made, I knew my boy wouldn't disappoint
- MaximumBone

What advanced stats are you using?

I used Evolving Hockey's data and Jokiharju didn't look as great there.

Brightside, Risto did pretty well for himself w/ lesser minutes, Dahlin showed well (though in softened minutes) and Jokiharju was a (frank)ing steal from Chicago

In case I forgot to come back and say it after singing his praises when the trade was made, I knew my boy wouldn't disappoint
- MaximumBone

Jokiharju was very, very good especially down the stretch. I have high hopes for him.

As for your point on scandella/miller, Scandella was never benched in favour of Miller, he missed time due to injury but Krueger played in every game he could right up until the trade.

Should the sabres have kept scandella and moved miller? You could make that argument, but given how rough a season he was having, who was taking him?

And you could apply the same logic to other choices the sabres made that they had control over. Bogosian seeing any ice time, for example, probably cost them a playoff spot.

What advanced stats are you using?

I used Evolving Hockey's data and Jokiharju didn't look as great there.
- kingcong39

Their RAPM doesn't adjust for usage or have a date range. Relative to usage, Jokiharju was playing very well especially after the new year.

They gave him the "risto treatment" and he didn't dominate or anything but I thought for his first full season he handled it pretty well.

What advanced stats are you using?

I used Evolving Hockey's data and Jokiharju didn't look as great there.
- kingcong39

Mine is a pretty simple and flawed set of measures. It's oriented around comparing actual results (GF and HDGF both w/& w/o linemates) with process (CF, SCF, HDCF, etc) and expected results through Natural Stat Trick. Then I try to take context into consideration with PuckIQ's TOI and deployment breakdowns (great for visualizing context). In conjunction, I'll check some of those charts for niche flow-of-play percentiles, though it's been a while since I've used those.

As for Jokiharju specifically, I more meant he's a steal in that you got a guy who posted reasonable results as a 20 year facing tougher minutes than he should for Alex (frank)ing Nylander. Not that he was particularly exceptional.

Their RAPM doesn't adjust for usage or have a date range. Relative to usage, Jokiharju was playing very well especially after the new year.

They gave him the "risto treatment" and he didn't dominate or anything but I thought for his first full season he handled it pretty well.
- Michael Ghofrani

I poured over all their data (literally everything they have, which is much more than the RAPM), and my ultimate finding was this: Jokiharju, while often talked about like a mini savior defenseman, he is not close to that and still has a ways to go.

I'm not in any rush to lock him to a long term deal to try and get savings down the road.

Let's switch to problem solving mode.

Trade him to the Devils for all three of their first round picks this year and Nico Hischier; or

Trade him to Ottawa for all three of their first round picks and Chris Tierney.
- kingcong39

I’d try LA. Get their first this year along with Turcotte, Kaliyev, and Bjornfot

Jokiharju was very, very good especially down the stretch. I have high hopes for him.

As for your point on scandella/miller, Scandella was never benched in favour of Miller, he missed time due to injury but Krueger played in every game he could right up until the trade.

Should the sabres have kept scandella and moved miller? You could make that argument, but given how rough a season he was having, who was taking him?

And you could apply the same logic to other choices the sabres made that they had control over. Bogosian seeing any ice time, for example, probably cost them a playoff spot.
- Michael Ghofrani

Why would or should they have kept Scandella?

He had a miraculous turnaround, was a pending UFA, and they should not have extended him.

Waiting longer to trade him for a better return? Sure. Not trading him at all? No way.

I poured over all their data (literally everything they have, which is much more than the RAPM), and my ultimate finding was this: Jokiharju, while often talked about like a mini savior defenseman, he is not close to that and still has a ways to go.

I'm not in any rush to lock him to a long term deal to try and get savings down the road.
- kingcong39

They still to my knowledge don't account for usage, which i think is important in this case.

His results this year weren't impressive but he was also asked to play well above what is the norm for players like him and as the season went on, the numbers got better.

Jokiharju was very, very good especially down the stretch. I have high hopes for him.

As for your point on scandella/miller, Scandella was never benched in favour of Miller, he missed time due to injury but Krueger played in every game he could right up until the trade.

Should the sabres have kept scandella and moved miller? You could make that argument, but given how rough a season he was having, who was taking him?

And you could apply the same logic to other choices the sabres made that they had control over. Bogosian seeing any ice time, for example, probably cost them a playoff spot.
- Michael Ghofrani

I'm not saying trade him; I'm advocating for benching or waiving him

As for Bogo: I would and do apply that same logic, but his results over his 19 games don't account for the difference in goal share over the full season like Miller during his stretch away from Dahlin. I think Bogo playing minutes in the event of injuries would've left them better off than Miller. In fact, evidence I'm seeing suggests that Bogosian fared better against the tougher opposition that Miller struggled when he faced more often.

That being said, one can pick these kinds of things apart all day and get nowhere. If the special teams even pulled even, you guys would've been 10 goals better off (not including ensuing EN goals that would've been avoided).

The Ottawa deal is not enough? Wow.
- kingcong39

Yes those are unproven players he's a future HOF player

Yes those are unproven players he's a future HOF player
- GERBE!!!75PTS

Unless you’re trading him for McDavid, there is not a single trade in the NHL where we wouldn’t be giving up the best player in the deal.

Feetinyourhair22
You might be the worst poster in here.
Josh Allen not jake allen

Keep your jets mouth shut about josh.

Maybe I'm deflecting, but your posts are consistently terrible.

Why would or should they have kept Scandella?

He had a miraculous turnaround, was a pending UFA, and they should not have extended him.

Waiting longer to trade him for a better return? Sure. Not trading him at all? No way.
- kingcong39

Because teams that want to win usually keep guys who are having successful seasons even if they're not planning on keeping the guy long term.

I can see that the possibility of re-injury likely spooked Botteril into rushing the move, but there was NO reason to trade him for a 4th when he did. The optics are only made worse by his subsequent swap of that 4th for Frolik (defeating the argument that it was asset management) and Montreal's deadline return for Scandella (defeating the argument that there was no other deal to be made).

The fact that Montreal is only ahead of the Sabres by one win, which Scandella's contributions more than likely facilitated is just a final kick in the teeth.

I'm not saying trade him; I'm advocating for benching or waiving him

As for Bogo: I would and do apply that same logic, but his results over his 19 games don't account for the difference in goal share over the full season like Miller during his stretch away from Dahlin. I think Bogo playing minutes in the event of injuries would've left them better off than Miller. In fact, evidence I'm seeing suggests that Bogosian fared better against the tougher opposition that Miller struggled when he faced more often.

That being said, one can pick these kinds of things apart all day and get nowhere. If the special teams even pulled even, you guys would've been 10 goals better off (not including ensuing EN goals that would've been avoided).
- MaximumBone

This is sort of nit picking though. Bogosian was less terrible in a small sample of minutes, but still terrible. The overall impact across any usage has Bogosian being a negative impact defender. At least Miller crushed soft minutes.

I wrote about the goaltending being a surprise let down on the PK, they don't escape blame either although it's harder to assign it when they're combined cap hit is slightly over 4 mil.

Unless you’re trading him for McDavid, there is not a single trade in the NHL where we wouldn’t be giving up the best player in the deal.
- Pegullaville

Mackinnon, though.

I hate the lottery phase drawings, but I love the playoff format. Really cool the locks are playing round robin to determine top 4 playoff seeds in each conference. Oilers vs. Hawks my favorite series of the qualifiers. I don’t put an asterisk next to the Stanley Cup winner this year at all. It’s still going to be a grind and cream will rise to the top when all said and done.

Mackinnon, though.
- MaximumBone

Sure, but he’s not going anywhere.

They still to my knowledge don't account for usage, which i think is important in this case.

His results this year weren't impressive but he was also asked to play well above what is the norm for players like him and as the season went on, the numbers got better.
- Michael Ghofrani

They have zone starts, if that's what you mean, among other things.