His defensive numbers last year were far from good.
- kingcong39

His offense wasn't that great either, at least at 5v5

The top line got caved in both in XG and CF %. Eichel is the only reason that line didn't cost them points in the standings. Maybe Reinhart as well, at least defensively. I think his offensive numbers took a dip too.

I have no problem with mediocre numbers in both categories if that line consistently produces well above their XG, but only 1/3 of that line did with any sort of consistency.

His offense wasn't that great either, at least at 5v5

The top line got caved in both in XG and CF %. Eichel is the only reason that line didn't cost them points in the standings. Maybe Reinhart as well, at least defensively. I think his offensive numbers took a dip too.

I have no problem with mediocre numbers in both categories if that line consistently produces well above their XG, but only 1/3 of that line did with any sort of consistency.
- Michael Ghofrani

I still question whether it's a good 1st line. With 2/3 needing new contracts, it's an important question.

His offense wasn't that great either, at least at 5v5

The top line got caved in both in XG and CF %. Eichel is the only reason that line didn't cost them points in the standings. Maybe Reinhart as well, at least defensively. I think his offensive numbers took a dip too.

I have no problem with mediocre numbers in both categories if that line consistently produces well above their XG, but only 1/3 of that line did with any sort of consistency.
- Michael Ghofrani

Eichel's out of this world shooting carried that line offensively in many ways.

I still question whether it's a good 1st line. With 2/3 needing new contracts, it's an important question.
- Lunaion

You question it at a cap hit of let's say $21M combined annually ($10M, $7M, $4M)?

You question it at a cap hit of let's say $21M combined annually ($10M, $7M, $4M)?
- kingcong39

Term is a big question too, especially if those numbers end up higher. If you over-commit to this core, I have serious reservations.

I still question whether it's a good 1st line. With 2/3 needing new contracts, it's an important question.
- Lunaion

It's a fair question. As KC said, if Eichel's shooting was just "very good" instead of out of this world for a huge chunk of the season, that line might have hurt that team more than it helped.

I thought it was an okay decision because it would spread out scoring, with skinner on his own line. If they had kept him with Larsson and Sheary who knows how things may have turned out. That line was crushing the opposition, shame they broke it up to reassemble the log line.

Term is a big question too, especially is those numbers end up higher. If you over-commit to this core, I have serious reservations.
- Lunaion

Totally agree, as I would be making changes to the core this offseason, not just alterations or additions to the current core.

Is the above in English?
- kingcong39

It may be a little over your head, but let me guess you figured it out.
After all we've been figuring out grebe for years.

I've always wondered: why does a keyboard warrior's comments/thoughts mean more or have more validity than an athlete or entertainer? Why does the athlete or entertainer 'need to keep quiet'?
- kingcong39

Ive always wondered why your keyboard comments have any validity at all.
You should wipe your mouth with idolizing athletes and entertainers.

Is the bolded above the newest Bruce Willis action adventure movie?
- kingcong39

A+ 😀

You do realize that is his natural position right? The position he played to armed him being draft #2 overall... the position he dominated the World Juniors (between Domi and Duclair) at.

Was he the biggest guy on the ice back then.
- SuperCat

Yes , 7 years ago sam reinhart dominted the world juniors at center and was drafted #2oa. It WAS his natural position.

Biggest guy on the ice? Doubtful.

Sam looked great in that tournament, high hopes....

It's a fair question. As KC said, if Eichel's shooting was just "very good" instead of out of this world for a huge chunk of the season, that line might have hurt that team more than it helped.

I thought it was an okay decision because it would spread out scoring, with skinner on his own line. If they had kept him with Larsson and Sheary who knows how things may have turned out. That line was crushing the opposition, shame they broke it up to reassemble the log line.
- Michael Ghofrani

It was sad they moved away from the trio of Skinner - Larsson - Sheary so quickly as it took so long to find Skinner a Center he meshed well with.

His offense wasn't that great either, at least at 5v5

The top line got caved in both in XG and CF %. Eichel is the only reason that line didn't cost them points in the standings. Maybe Reinhart as well, at least defensively. I think his offensive numbers took a dip too.

I have no problem with mediocre numbers in both categories if that line consistently produces well above their XG, but only 1/3 of that line did with any sort of consistency.
- Michael Ghofrani

Are you just looking at their numbers for the whole season? Because if you take out the first month, which would seem reasonable to allow for Olofsson to adjust to the speed of the NHL and playing with new linemates, their numbers were pretty good.
Even looking at the whole season, their EV numbers aren't horrible.
Olofsson EV g/60 .7 a/60 1.2
Reinhart EV g/60 .9 a/60 1.1
Eichel EV g/60 1.2 a/60 1.3
Take away the first month that Olofsson was still adjusting and he scored at a 20g even strength pace. Reinhart had one season with 20 EV goals.
Now add that teams really only had to worry about shutting down one line and that affects their numbers as well. Get a competent middle 6 that can add some scoring and you likely see their numbers go up.
Also, at even strength all three had a positive CF%, so not sure how they got caved in?

Are you just looking at their numbers for the whole season? Because if you take out the first month, which would seem reasonable to allow for Olofsson to adjust to the speed of the NHL and playing with new linemates, their numbers were pretty good.
Even looking at the whole season, their EV numbers aren't horrible.
Olofsson EV g/60 .7 a/60 1.2
Reinhart EV g/60 .9 a/60 1.1
Eichel EV g/60 1.2 a/60 1.3
Take away the first month that Olofsson was still adjusting and he scored at a 20g even strength pace. Reinhart had one season with 20 EV goals.
Now add that teams really only had to worry about shutting down one line and that affects their numbers as well. Get a competent middle 6 that can add some scoring and you likely see their numbers go up.
Also, at even strength all three had a positive CF%, so not sure how they got caved in?
- adambuffalo

Why would I take out a month's worth of data. Olofsson isn't some kid who just came out of juniors, he's been play pro hockey for years, and not in the UK, in Sweden. He had a full season of north american hockey in the AHL as well.

Also, if you're looking at line stats my recommendation is to look at 5v5 only. EV adds 4 on 4 and 3 on 3 data, both of which are increasingly less about line chemistry (since those 3 are unlikely to see the ice together).

Their 5v5 CF% was just under 49 together, and an XGF of around 44%

Are you just looking at their numbers for the whole season? Because if you take out the first month, which would seem reasonable to allow for Olofsson to adjust to the speed of the NHL and playing with new linemates, their numbers were pretty good.
Even looking at the whole season, their EV numbers aren't horrible.
Olofsson EV g/60 .7 a/60 1.2
Reinhart EV g/60 .9 a/60 1.1
Eichel EV g/60 1.2 a/60 1.3
Take away the first month that Olofsson was still adjusting and he scored at a 20g even strength pace. Reinhart had one season with 20 EV goals.
Now add that teams really only had to worry about shutting down one line and that affects their numbers as well. Get a competent middle 6 that can add some scoring and you likely see their numbers go up.
Also, at even strength all three had a positive CF%, so not sure how they got caved in?
- adambuffalo

The rates I found as far as Even Strength CF/60 in the Evolving Hockey website from the 19-20 season are as follows (the CF +/- is also below):

Eichel +2.39 (+3.45)
Reinhart +.84 (+3.03)
Olofsson -1.32 (-4.31)

Olofsson proved he’s an NHL caliber player with an elite shot. That’s about it.

There’s nothing there that would have me pencil him in as a top 6’er on a long term deal at this point

Why would I take out a month's worth of data. Olofsson isn't some kid who just came out of juniors, he's been play pro hockey for years, and not in the UK, in Sweden. He had a full season of north american hockey in the AHL as well.

- Michael Ghofrani

It sometimes takes time for a line to build chemistry, especially timing and knowing where each guy is going to be.
Panarin came over at the same age as Olofsson his rookie year and scored at a very similar pace. 5v5 g/60 .9 a/60 1.2. Olofsson .7 and 1.2.
That's with Panarin spending over 80% of his ice time with Kane who had a career high scoring season that year.
Even going with 5v5 Jack and Sam were still both over 50 CF% and Olofsson was 48.8%. Not exactly getting caved in. Going back to Patrick Kane, he scored a career high 110 points last year and had a 5v5 CF% of 48.8. He must have been getting caved in too with that 48.8%.

It sometimes takes time for a line to build chemistry, especially timing and knowing where each guy is going to be.
Panarin came over at the same age as Olofsson his rookie year and scored at a very similar pace. 5v5 g/60 .9 a/60 1.2. Olofsson .7 and 1.2.
That's with Panarin spending over 80% of his ice time with Kane who had a career high scoring season that year.
Even going with 5v5 Jack and Sam were still both over 50 CF% and Olofsson was 48.8%. Not exactly getting caved in. Going back to Patrick Kane, he scored a career high 110 points last year and had a 5v5 CF% of 48.8. He must have been getting caved in too with that 48.8%.
- adambuffalo

Not sure where you got .7 from unless you're subtracting the first month again. If you pair the 48.8 with an incredibly low XGF, its below league average shot attempts and well below league average quality shooting for and against. Relative to what you'd want from a top line, this is getting caved in.

Patrick Kane shot well above his XG if i recall correctly, and he had to just to pull even from having god awful defensive numbers.

You have to take CF numbers with XG numbers otherwise it kinda misses the point. Like yeah shot attempts were near even, on the other hand the quality of shot attempts against that he was on the ice for were significantly higher than what they produced with him

The long term results were unfavourable for Chicago

Not sure where you got .7 from unless you're subtracting the first month again. If you pair the 48.8 with an incredibly low XGF, its below league average shot attempts and well below league average quality shooting for and against. Relative to what you'd want from a top line, this is getting caved in.

Patrick Kane shot well above his XG if i recall correctly, and he had to just to pull even from having god awful defensive numbers.

You have to take CF numbers with XG numbers otherwise it kinda misses the point. Like yeah shot attempts were near even, on the other hand the quality of shot attempts against that he was on the ice for were significantly higher than what they produced with him

The long term results were unfavourable for Chicago
- Michael Ghofrani

Do they have numbers when Olofsson played with Mojo and Kahun, now it wasn't a lot.

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/12/buffalo-sabres-lawrence-pilut-amerks-analytics-travis-yost/
- kingcong39

I noticed Travis Yost's bio at the top of that article makes no reference to his work at a certain hockey website.

Travis Yost has been involved in the world of hockey analytics for more than a decade and is part of TSN's Hockey Analytics team. Before joining TSN, Yost was a contributor at the Ottawa Citizen, the Sporting News and NHL Numbers, and he has been a consultant for an NHL franchise. He will be contributing breakdowns on the Buffalo Sabres for The Buffalo News. Follow Yost on Twitter: @travisyost.

Not sure where you got .7 from unless you're subtracting the first month again.

You have to take CF numbers with XG numbers otherwise it kinda misses the point. Like yeah shot attempts were near even, on the other hand the quality of shot attempts against that he was on the ice for were significantly higher than what they produced with him

- Michael Ghofrani

The .7 g/60 were EV. For some reason hockey-reference didn't have this year's 5v5 #s.
Quality of shots against falls a lot more on your center and dmen than on your wingers.
It should be noted that he had more EV assists this year in 54 games than Skinner had in 82 games last year with Jack.

The .7 g/60 were EV. For some reason hockey-reference didn't have this year's 5v5 #s.
Quality of shots against falls a lot more on your center and dmen than on your wingers.
It should be noted that he had more EV assists this year in 54 games than Skinner had in 82 games last year with Jack.
- adambuffalo

Olofsson had 7 primary assists 5 on 5, and 6 5 on 5 goals

Last year Skinner had 11 primary assists 5 on 5 and 27 Goals 5 on 5.

Not sure where you’re going with that comparison because Olofsson isn’t half the player Skinner is

Olofsson proved he’s an NHL caliber player with an elite shot. That’s about it.

There’s nothing there that would have me pencil him in as a top 6’er on a long term deal at this point
- sbroads24

Strange take.

Oloffson looked great on the pp, and competent 5 x 5.

Rookie season, scored at the same pace as the 8 year 72 million $ guy.

I thought he looked as good as sam, if not better at times.

There is the soup sandwich affect of eichel though

Olofsson had 7 primary assists 5 on 5, and 6 5 on 5 goals

Last year Skinner had 11 primary assists 5 on 5 and 27 Goals 5 on 5.

Not sure where you’re going with that comparison because Olofsson isn’t half the player Skinner is
- sbroads24

14 goals total and 23 points for skinner last season

59 games

Strange take.

Oloffson looked great on the pp, and competent 5 x 5.

Rookie season, scored at the same pace as the 8 year 72 million $ guy.

I thought he looked as good as sam, if not better at times.

There is the soup sandwich affect of eichel though
- Boss34

He looked competent. Which is fine. Reinhart is a much better player as of today.

I don’t see a bonafide top 6 player yet.

He did not do a good job of getting open or creating space to get his shot off besides on the PP.