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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Flyers ECQF Gameday: Game 5 vs. MTL (8/19/20)
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Bill Meltzer
Editor
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 07.13.2006

Aug 19 @ 9:38 AM ET
The newest Alex Lyon Bubble Blog.

https://www.youtube.com/w...1djCX0bk&feature=emb_logo
cdearth23
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
Joined: 08.06.2015

Aug 19 @ 9:54 AM ET
Stick tap for Bill!

I'm in favor of going with Farabee over JVR at least for the rest of this series. Farabee's speed is evident and he brings more (right now) than JVR.

Hagg has made a difference. He makes Braun better too. Keep Ghost down.

To me, I would not even consider going with Elliott for game 5. Ride your hot goalie in the playoffs.

Let's go boys! Close it out tonight and get some rest.
cheesesteak37
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 06.11.2019

Aug 19 @ 9:59 AM ET
MTL has Weber and Chiarot who play mean, finish checks etc. This is where Sam Morin would be useful. Hagg brings some needed physicality. Ghost might see more ice as a swingman bottom 6 wing/PP specialist/occasional 3rd pair D.
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Ersson-Ville, NB, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Aug 19 @ 10:01 AM ET
Stick tap for Bill!

I'm in favor of going with Farabee over JVR at least for the rest of this series. Farabee's speed is evident and he brings more (right now) than JVR.

Hagg has made a difference. He makes Braun better too. Keep Ghost down.

To me, I would not even consider going with Elliott for game 5. Ride your hot goalie in the playoffs.

Let's go boys! Close it out tonight and get some rest.

- cdearth23


Yes re; Hart. I expect the idea of Elliott wasn't considered long if at all. Hart is in a groove, and he's young, so he'll be fine IMO.
MrPerfect316
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Canada, YT
Joined: 07.06.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:04 AM ET
Yeah, the five-time Jack Adams Award finalist (who very well may have won it this season for the second time), and has taken teams in both conferences to the Stanley Cup Finals, is a lousy coach because anonymous message board poster guy says so.

The Flyers do not -- and are not -- playing the trap.

The Canadiens were the NHL's No. 2 puck possession team this season (both by Corsi and shot-on-goal measures), and No. 3 in expected goal differential. They are a very good forechecking team. The Flyers have generally limited their high-quality chances in Games 1, 3 and 4, and Hart has taken care of the rest.

The Flyers were 7th in goals-per-game in the NHL this season (also 7th in GAA). They can win different ways. In this series, they've had to win low-scoring games. That's fine. When you give up 1-1-1-1-5-0-0 goals over a seven-game stretch, the five-goal one is the outlier, not the others.

Now go back to your troll hole.

- bmeltzer


Mic drop.



Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Ersson-Ville, NB, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Aug 19 @ 10:04 AM ET
Thanks Bill! Hart was solid, team defense was solid. I liked how AV mixed all the lines up at the start. They are definitely trying to be too perfect on the PP as well too stationary. Price is in their heads! Looks like they are back on track with team defense, just have to get some confidence offensively. Let’s Go Flyers!
- HockeyLifer


I completely agree with you about Price being in their heads on the PP, and it surely makes sense to me. What I do see as well, is that hart is in Montreal's head too. There were several grade A opportunities the Habs had yesterday and I said here's a shot..they passed looking for the tap in etc. I think the O confidence issues are going both ways.

I saw the post game presser with Gallagher and Weber. Gally was solemn and Weber looked like he was going to kill someone haha intense and scary dude
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:09 AM ET
Any team that’s forced to play the trap against the Montreal Canadiens should be kicked out of the bubble lol especially when it’s top seed against #24. Embarrassment to hockey imo. But it’s AV coaching, I wouldn’t expect any less.
- QuickSCF


Actually, the one thing Habs are able to do with pretty good success is gain entry.
Here is my opinion on why the Habs have been shut down, in no particular order.
1. Their wingers are getting squashed by our far bigger D, especially bottom 4.
2. They are losing a lot of defensive zones FOs, and the wins are rarely clean wins.
3. Their is very good lane discipline and lot of Flyers are blocking shots.
4. Forward support down low is excellent after the first 2 games.
5. Flyers are rarely sending a 3rd man deep and getting outnumbered on rushes after the first two games. It has happened, but rarely.
6. The Hayes line in particular was playing an East West game near center ice and looking for lateral passes. All lines have now made it a priority to make sure puck gets in deep.
6. Though Habs are a great team in creating high danger chances, they seem to be poor finishers.
7. The last but possibly the most important: Carter Hart has tremendous positioning and anticipation. He rarely has had to make ten bell saves. But a lot of the times the posts have occurred because he has taken away most of the net and there is a very narrow window to shoot at over his shoulders. Its not a coincidence that most of the posts have been high.

In my opinion, these factors are responsible for the Habs offensive futility.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:11 AM ET
Yeah, the five-time Jack Adams Award finalist (who very well may have won it this season for the second time), and has taken teams in both conferences to the Stanley Cup Finals, is a lousy coach because anonymous message board poster guy says so.

The Flyers do not -- and are not -- playing the trap.

The Canadiens were the NHL's No. 2 puck possession team this season (both by Corsi and shot-on-goal measures), and No. 3 in expected goal differential. They are a very good forechecking team. The Flyers have generally limited their high-quality chances in Games 1, 3 and 4, and Hart has taken care of the rest.

The Flyers were 7th in goals-per-game in the NHL this season (also 7th in GAA). They can win different ways. In this series, they've had to win low-scoring games. That's fine. When you give up 1-1-1-1-5-0-0 goals over a seven-game stretch, the five-goal one is the outlier, not the others.

Now go back to your troll hole.

- bmeltzer


There should be an applause icon.
copelal
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Baltimore, MD
Joined: 03.12.2014

Aug 19 @ 10:19 AM ET
Sportsnet basically framed it that Montreal played terribly, and not that the Flyers did anything at all other than Hart. It's a conscious effort to play this way by the Flyers to counter what Montreal brings. People want wide open fire wagon hockey I get that, but we are looking to win, and that would play to Montreal's strengths.
- Hextall271


Fine with me. Let the hockey "intelligentsia" give the Flyers no credit. We don't need their approval... only that when they read the final score after each game, the Flyers have the higher number, and the analysts' chagrin increases a bit more with each passing game.
MBFlyerfan
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Be nice from now on, NJ
Joined: 03.17.2006

Aug 19 @ 10:20 AM ET
There should be an applause icon.
- PT21



Honestly how could any Ottawa fan have the stones to troll anyone about anything?
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Ersson-Ville, NB, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Aug 19 @ 10:21 AM ET
Fine with me. Let the hockey "intelligentsia" give the Flyers no credit. We don't need their approval... only that when they read the final score after each game, the Flyers have the higher number, and their chagrin increases a bit more with each passing game.
- copelal


Well, soon I hope, there will be no Canadian teams left (although I don't mind Calgary or Vancouver) so they will begin to focus on all the teams.
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Aug 19 @ 10:21 AM ET
ttt
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Ersson-Ville, NB, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Aug 19 @ 10:23 AM ET
Honestly how could any Ottawa fan have the stones to troll anyone about anything?
- MBFlyerfan


I was blown away. I listed only some of the issues with that pathetic org. I mean the fans pray for their senile owner to divest himself of the team and purposefully stay away to protest. wow.
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Aug 19 @ 10:23 AM ET
Yeah, the five-time Jack Adams Award finalist (who very well may have won it this season for the second time), and has taken teams in both conferences to the Stanley Cup Finals, is a lousy coach because anonymous message board poster guy says so.

The Flyers do not -- and are not -- playing the trap.

The Canadiens were the NHL's No. 2 puck possession team this season (both by Corsi and shot-on-goal measures), and No. 3 in expected goal differential. They are a very good forechecking team. The Flyers have generally limited their high-quality chances in Games 1, 3 and 4, and Hart has taken care of the rest.

The Flyers were 7th in goals-per-game in the NHL this season (also 7th in GAA). They can win different ways. In this series, they've had to win low-scoring games. That's fine. When you give up 1-1-1-1-5-0-0 goals over a seven-game stretch, the five-goal one is the outlier, not the others.

Now go back to your troll hole.

- bmeltzer



Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Aug 19 @ 10:25 AM ET


3. Okay, so we won, life is great but one thing I don’t understand....Vigneault inserts Farabee into the line up and the coaching staff finally makes power play adjustments that seems to suit a first year rookie. Why? You mean to tell me JvR is playing so poorly and doesn’t deserve the PP time, while Farabee who is scratched every other game does deserve the PP time?

I know I’m gonna get pooped on. I’m too negative, focus on the fact we’re winning. I’m gonna be accused of favoring JvR, Schenn, Simmonds or whoever. I’m sorry but you can’t tell me this isn’t a little funny. JvR plays with freakin Nate Thompson, Tyler Pitlick and Derek Grant. Farabee plays with Sean Couturier, Claude Giroux or Kevin Hayes instantly.

- SuperSchennBros



You said the same thing yesterday.
Doc_Sarcasm
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Should of studied Geometry
Joined: 04.28.2013

Aug 19 @ 10:26 AM ET
You said the same thing yesterday.
- Scoob



and the day before
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Aug 19 @ 10:27 AM ET

7. The last but possibly the most important: Carter Hart has tremendous positioning and anticipation. He rarely has had to make ten bell saves. But a lot of the times the posts have occurred because he has taken away most of the net and there is a very narrow window to shoot at over his shoulders. Its not a coincidence that most of the posts have been high.

- PT21


Agreed!
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:39 AM ET


3. Okay, so we won, life is great but one thing I don’t understand....Vigneault inserts Farabee into the line up and the coaching staff finally makes power play adjustments that seems to suit a first year rookie. Why? You mean to tell me JvR is playing so poorly and doesn’t deserve the PP time, while Farabee who is scratched every other game does deserve the PP time?

- SuperSchennBros


Since you keep harping on this, I will try to give you a systematic response based on what I feel. You may see something I don't know, but this is my best take:

First, the pp was not molded to favor Bee. That's silly. Rather, Bee was inserted because TK did not do too well and the new look had a place for him. Clearly they are acutely conscious of changing the predictability. To wit: the two bank passes from Giroux to Voracek to free up Couturier from Weber (almost worked the first time!)

Look at the JVR issue more systematically:

1. Is JVR being singled out? No. Voracek was demoted to the 3rd line early in the season, for the first time in forever iirc. He would get away with things with Hakstol (especially turnovers in neutral ice) he does not with the new staff. Laughton has played 4th and 3rd line for some time before he moved up. Hayes played 3rd line.

2. Are the coaches too obstinate and unwilling to give people a chance? No. Frost has been brought up twice. Ghost has been tried several times. Lines have been changed, even after wins. Most impressively, Flyers have changed their game to adapt to Habs significantly. Whatever you may say about the coaching, being obstinate is not a valid criticism.

3. Has this approach with JVR borne fruit earlier? Yes. They have scratched JVR before, and extracted far better effort from him. He even had an injury trying to block a shot. I never remember him blocking shots before in his career.

4. In this kind of series, JVR is not going to get the luxury to drift to an open space to snap off a shot off someone's feed. There isn't that kind of space for him, nor is he Brett Hull to make that sort of effort worthwhile. As Bill wrote yesterday, his value is rather one dimensional. He does not make his line-mates better. He is a decent passer, but does not read the plays particularly well, unlike say Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Hayes. He is the easily the worst forward defensively.

So, he has to score goals or at least create chances, and in the team game we play, he has to do his part to get those looks. If he is stuck with worse linemates, he has to show something that says - look I did my part and the play failed because of poor skill on the part of my linemates. Can you point to a single instance where that happened? Me neither.

So, we come to the conclusion that it is not bias or obstinacy but rather a consequence of JVR's play and the team game the coaches prioritize that leads to his departure from the line up. Especially with the Habs, where defensive responsibility and forechecking and finishing hits have clearly been prioritized.

More generally, if JVR ever used his size to create space for himself, he would be a perennial all star. He has great hands. But as Tomahawk said earlier this year, he will always be a big, likeable guy who underachieves relative to his potential.
SuperSchennBros
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot!
Joined: 09.01.2012

Aug 19 @ 10:42 AM ET
It’s how many days in a row with the JVR question, I think it’s time to give it a rest. You obviously aren’t going to hear whatever you’re looking for. AV clearly does not like what he’s bringing to the table .
- ClaudeFather

How about you make me stop, tough guy because I’m not gonna.
Marc D
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: best smile, 14 without fake tees
Joined: 03.28.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:44 AM ET
Closing out that fourth win is the hardest. The Flyers have really stepped up their team D and it’s great to see, maybe at the expense of added offense. But that’s winning playoff hockey.

I thought after the last round robin game that Gostisbehere was really playing well and given Montreal’s team speed he would be a better choice to play over Hägg. But that logic didn’t work, Hägg and Braun have been the better option.

AV has prioritized team D over offense and I think that’s why JvR and Ghost are sitting. Even with the PP struggling mightily. So far it’s worked.

If they get past the Habs, I could see JvR back in the top nine and Raffl back on the 4th line, and maybe Ghost given another shot, to try and get the PP and offense going. But maybe not, the coach loves this shut down style and it is working.
HockeyLifer
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: NJ
Joined: 04.23.2015

Aug 19 @ 10:44 AM ET
I completely agree with you about Price being in their heads on the PP, and it surely makes sense to me. What I do see as well, is that hart is in Montreal's head too. There were several grade A opportunities the Habs had yesterday and I said here's a shot..they passed looking for the tap in etc. I think the O confidence issues are going both ways.

I saw the post game presser with Gallagher and Weber. Gally was solemn and Weber looked like he was going to kill someone haha intense and scary dude

- Hextall271

Hexy, good point on Hart! Was feeling the same way about Hart being in their heads as well. Weber is intense, man! I didn’t see their presser but I’ll look for it. Be well, Let’s Go Flyers!
Marc D
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: best smile, 14 without fake tees
Joined: 03.28.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:44 AM ET
The newest Alex Lyon Bubble Blog.

https://www.youtube.com/w...1djCX0bk&feature=emb_logo

- bmeltzer

Is that Hawaii, lol
Love Alex
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 19 @ 10:45 AM ET
Honestly how could any Ottawa fan have the stones to troll anyone about anything?
- MBFlyerfan


I am giving him the benefit of the doubt...
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 19 @ 10:45 AM ET


Look at the JVR issue more systematically:

1. Is JVR being singled out? No. Voracek was demoted to the 3rd line early in the season, for the first time in forever iirc. He would get away with things with Hakstol (especially turnovers in neutral ice) he does not with the new staff. Laughton has played 4th and 3rd line for some time before he moved up. Hayes played 3rd line.


- PT21


Voracek was not demoted. Demoted implies that the coach was trying to send a message to the player. Not the case with Voracek. The coach is looking for balance throughout the lineup and his multiple line changes is in search of that balance.



SuperSchennBros
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot!
Joined: 09.01.2012

Aug 19 @ 10:55 AM ET
Since you keep harping on this, I will try to give you a systematic response based on what I feel. You may see something I don't know, but this is my best take:

First, the pp was not molded to favor Bee. That's silly. Rather, Bee was inserted because TK did not do too well and the new look had a place for him. Clearly they are acutely conscious of changing the predictability. To wit: the two bank passes from Giroux to Voracek to free up Couturier from Weber (almost worked the first time!)

Look at the JVR issue more systematically:

1. Is JVR being singled out? No. Voracek was demoted to the 3rd line early in the season, for the first time in forever iirc. He would get away with things with Hakstol (especially turnovers in neutral ice) he does not with the new staff. Laughton has played 4th and 3rd line for some time before he moved up. Hayes played 3rd line.

2. Are the coaches too obstinate and unwilling to give people a chance? No. Frost has been brought up twice. Ghost has been tried several times. Lines have been changed, even after wins. Most impressively, Flyers have changed their game to adapt to Habs significantly. Whatever you may say about the coaching, being obstinate is not a valid criticism.

3. Has this approach with JVR borne fruit earlier? Yes. They have scratched JVR before, and extracted far better effort from him. He even had an injury trying to block a shot. I never remember him blocking shots before in his career.

4. In this kind of series, JVR is not going to get the luxury to drift to an open space to snap off a shot off someone's feed. There isn't that kind of space for him, nor is he Brett Hull to make that sort of effort worthwhile. As Bill wrote yesterday, his value is rather one dimensional. He does not make his line-mates better. He is a decent passer, but does not read the plays particularly well, unlike say Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Hayes. He is the easily the worst forward defensively.

So, he has to score goals or at least create chances, and in the team game we play, he has to do his part to get those looks. If he is stuck with worse linemates, he has to show something that says - look I did my part and the play failed because of poor skill on the part of my linemates. Can you point to a single instance where that happened? Me neither.

So, we come to the conclusion that it is not bias or obstinacy but rather a consequence of JVR's play and the team game the coaches prioritize that leads to his departure from the line up. Especially with the Habs, where defensive responsibility and forechecking and finishing hits have clearly been prioritized.

More generally, if JVR ever used his size to create space for himself, he would be a perennial all star. He has great hands. But as Tomahawk said earlier this year, he will always be a big, likeable guy who underachieves relative to his potential.

- PT21


1. Voracek wasn’t demoted. Voracek got hurt and Farabee was handed an opportunity and the line of Couturier and Giroux responded well for one game. When the line continued to struggle, Jake was put back into place. Truth be told our two stand out forwards have been Michael Raffl and Scott Laughton who haven’t sniffed Power Play time at all.

2. Ghost was handed an opportunity and even after how stead the Braun/Hägg pair were down the stretch, helping us win 9 of 10 games before the regular season ended. Ghost had one really nice return and than a very blow average game. Going back to Hägg was a smarter decision and continuing with Hägg would be an even smarter decision, seeing how the series has become a defensive battle.

3. JvR ended the season injured. Sure, we don’t seen very many block shots from JvR but I would assume he has taken much punishment by making his money in the crease, which is a dirty area to take punishment. He also took a pretty big hit from Shea Weber after avoiding one Hab and walking right into the Habs’ Captain.

4. How much better did Giroux make Grant and Laughton yesterday? The truth is, nobody can make them much better. It was a weird line to put together and expect results. Do you expect the Giroux, Grant and Laughton line you be along term thing? I don’t.

We need a mix of skill and guys who are willing to go to the net in the top six. The reality is, the only guys willing to drive to the net play in the bottom six like JvR, Nate Thompson, Nick Aube-Kubel, Michael Raffl but won’t receive much feeds there.
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