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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Flyers ECSF Gameday: Game 4 vs. NYI (8/30/20)
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MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 1:57 PM ET
Rehire hextall and make fletch his assistant!!
- Hextall271



PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 31 @ 1:58 PM ET
Probably better now than to try to move him later.

They definitely need to clear some of these overpaid guys once their season ends.

I would say JVR is a must move.

Ghost is a must if you aren’t going to play him.

And ideally one of Jake or Giroux.

That gives them plenty of room to address their needs via FA and trade.

- hereticpride


Covid may have killed this team in more ways than one.

First, by completely disrupting flow. (I guess we will never know if the poor showing was due to that or the fundamentally different nature of post-season).

Second, by freezing salary caps or keeping raises low for the near future. Teams give these high paying contracts for long terms pretty much expecting that value of the player will start to decline in the back end, but since salary cap will also rise, % of payroll committed will also decline.

Well, point production value of Roo-Voracek has fallen, but salary % of cap will not change much. Only way we can trade them is by eating salary, or exchanging bad contracts, or getting low value (mid level prospects/3rd line players) and so on.

Else, no one is taking on 2-3 years of 10% of their own cap for these guys at current production.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 2:05 PM ET
Covid may have killed this team in more ways than one.

First, by completely disrupting flow. (I guess we will never know if the poor showing was due to that or the fundamentally different nature of post-season).

Second, by freezing salary caps or keeping raises low for the near future. Teams give these high paying contracts for long terms pretty much expecting that value of the player will start to decline in the back end, but since salary cap will also rise, % of payroll committed will also decline.

Well, point production value of Roo-Voracek has fallen, but salary % of cap will not change much. Only way we can trade them is by eating salary, or exchanging bad contracts, or getting low value (mid level prospects/3rd line players) and so on.

Else, no one is taking on 2-3 years of 10% of their own cap for these guys at current production.

- PT21


Flyers are not in a special situation. It is the same for every team. I agree that the circumstances that have resulted from the league stoppage is not normal but every team is facing the same challenges. Bottom line is this team has underachieved and numerous players have underachieved.
jmatchett383
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Newark, DE
Joined: 03.09.2010

Aug 31 @ 2:06 PM ET
BLOW IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness though. Think might be best to get Frost into a playoff game and play Ghost.

- xShoot4WarAmpsx


I mean, at this point...why not?
xShoot4WarAmpsx
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joined: 06.25.2010

Aug 31 @ 2:11 PM ET
Covid may have killed this team in more ways than one.

First, by completely disrupting flow. (I guess we will never know if the poor showing was due to that or the fundamentally different nature of post-season).

Second, by freezing salary caps or keeping raises low for the near future. Teams give these high paying contracts for long terms pretty much expecting that value of the player will start to decline in the back end, but since salary cap will also rise, % of payroll committed will also decline.

Well, point production value of Roo-Voracek has fallen, but salary % of cap will not change much. Only way we can trade them is by eating salary, or exchanging bad contracts, or getting low value (mid level prospects/3rd line players) and so on.

Else, no one is taking on 2-3 years of 10% of their own cap for these guys at current production.

- PT21


When you think back we didnt necessarily have that great of a Round Robin. I mean yes we beat the top teams in the East but WSH played poorly up to their elimination. BOS has played poorly as well but ended up picking up their play midway through the CAR series then dropped off again VS TB. TB was our only victory against a team that was playing well but even then we got a lead, sat on it and TB almost was able to come back. TB pressed hard and dominated the 3rd if I remember correctly.

Fact of the matter is at no point throughout the playoffs did I ever feel confident about getting a W. Even VS MON I always worried if we's see the Game 2 Flyers. Flyers looked like October PHI. Control the game for 20 mins and then the other team controls the other 40.

We also have to acknowledge that MON did play well. Price was very strong and they shutdown our offence much like they did to Crosby and the Pens. NYI are playing well defensively and are frustrating the Flyers as well. They work hard and out work us and they are patient and wait for us to slip up. All their goals have been due to the Isles taking advantage of our mistakes and they are pretty big mistakes.
aantny88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Suck it Phaneuf, PA
Joined: 03.14.2008

Aug 31 @ 2:19 PM ET
When you think back we didnt necessarily have that great of a Round Robin. I mean yes we beat the top teams in the East but WSH played poorly up to their elimination. BOS has played poorly as well but ended up picking up their play midway through the CAR series then dropped off again VS TB. TB was our only victory against a team that was playing well but even then we got a lead, sat on it and TB almost was able to come back. TB pressed hard and dominated the 3rd if I remember correctly.

Fact of the matter is at no point throughout the playoffs did I ever feel confident about getting a W. Even VS MON I always worried if we's see the Game 2 Flyers. Flyers looked like October PHI. Control the game for 20 mins and then the other team controls the other 40.

We also have to acknowledge that MON did play well. Price was very strong and they shutdown our offence much like they did to Crosby and the Pens. NYI are playing well defensively and are frustrating the Flyers as well. They work hard and out work us and they are patient and wait for us to slip up. All their goals have been due to the Isles taking advantage of our mistakes and they are pretty big mistakes.

- xShoot4WarAmpsx


I think a lot of people are missing this key point. Much of what has happened in this series is due to the Isles outworking the Flyers and they capitalize on every miscue. The Flyers could overcome this if their top players were scoring at their regular season rates, but they aren't and that's why they're on the brink of elimination. It sucks but it happens. They're being out coached (I really like AV too), out hustled and out muscled.
aantny88
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Suck it Phaneuf, PA
Joined: 03.14.2008

Aug 31 @ 2:22 PM ET
Covid may have killed this team in more ways than one.

First, by completely disrupting flow. (I guess we will never know if the poor showing was due to that or the fundamentally different nature of post-season).

Second, by freezing salary caps or keeping raises low for the near future. Teams give these high paying contracts for long terms pretty much expecting that value of the player will start to decline in the back end, but since salary cap will also rise, % of payroll committed will also decline.

Well, point production value of Roo-Voracek has fallen, but salary % of cap will not change much. Only way we can trade them is by eating salary, or exchanging bad contracts, or getting low value (mid level prospects/3rd line players) and so on.

Else, no one is taking on 2-3 years of 10% of their own cap for these guys at current production.

- PT21


I really do think the "bubble" is really affecting G, Coots and JVR. I can't fathom being away from my newborn child for almost 2 months. It has to be eating away at them, especially with them not playing at a high level right now. Yes, the could have opted out, but they probably felt obligated to finish what they started this season.
Phillywhiteout
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: West Chester, PA
Joined: 08.11.2020

Aug 31 @ 2:34 PM ET
I really do think the "bubble" is really affecting G, Coots and JVR. I can't fathom being away from my newborn child for almost 2 months. It has to be eating away at them, especially with them not playing at a high level right now. Yes, the could have opted out, but they probably felt obligated to finish what they started this season.
- aantny88
I don't mean to be harsh, but I think that's a convenient excuse. Giroux hasn't had a good playoff series since the 2012 series against the Pens. He has ONE goal in his last 26 playoff games. What was his excuse then? JVR is just a soft player that doesn't want to go to the dirty areas when it gets more physical and he has to get to those areas to score goals. You may have a point with Coots cause he has played well in the playoffs the past couple of times they have been there and he truly has a new born(2 days before he went into the bubble).
2Real
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: IT'S GRITTIN TIME, CA
Joined: 07.14.2007

Aug 31 @ 2:35 PM ET
I really do think the "bubble" is really affecting G, Coots and JVR. I can't fathom being away from my newborn child for almost 2 months. It has to be eating away at them, especially with them not playing at a high level right now. Yes, the could have opted out, but they probably felt obligated to finish what they started this season.
- aantny88

bullpoop they're a bunch of pussies if that's affecting them
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 2:40 PM ET
I think a lot of people are missing this key point. Much of what has happened in this series is due to the Isles outworking the Flyers and they capitalize on every miscue. The Flyers could overcome this if their top players were scoring at their regular season rates, but they aren't and that's why they're on the brink of elimination. It sucks but it happens. They're being out coached (I really like AV too), out hustled and out muscled.
- aantny88


I would disagree that they're being outcoached.
hereticpride
New Jersey Devils
Location: HEY. Does this pole still work?, NJ
Joined: 01.14.2011

Aug 31 @ 2:44 PM ET
bullpoop they're a bunch of pussies if that's affecting them
- 2Real

I’m sure it’s affecting everyone but it’s also not a good excuse. They’re being asked to play their best for 90 minutes a couple days a week.

I think people are just looking for excuses rather than admit these players just aren’t good enough.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Aug 31 @ 2:45 PM ET
[quote=xShoot4WarAmpsx]Control the game for 20 mins and then the other team controls the other 40.

/quote]

Personally, I don't buy the October/rust theory for two reasons:

1. The problems we saw in the first game versus MTL (period 2) never went away. That was 3 weeks and 28 oeriods ago. That's too long for rust to persists when the stakes are so high. We saw some signs yesterday, but that's because they were recklessly selling out and the 3rd forward jumping into the forecheck without hesitation, plus the D was pinching. (That's why we gave up those breakaways in goals 2-3 for the Isles). Remember, we also never won in regulation against these teams in the regular season (and even then went 2-4). This issue seems structural.

2. The offensive futility was part of the exact same pattern we have seen with the Giroux-Voracek core since 2014. In the post-season, defenses tighten up considerably.You needs speed and creativity and grit to break that down. Toronto had the first two but not the last and lost to CBJ. Tampa had all 3 and ended up beating CBJ handily.

The excuse for the Giroux-Voracek core in the past was that we were largely a 1 line team and other teams could focus on shutting them down. Well, this year we weren't, and that theory is busted. They will always struggle to score in the playoffs. Couts speed is not his strength. That turned out to be a slow, somewhat aging line.

Plus, Isles beat us with lots to spare. That's hardly a stud D back there btw. They rarely needed much pinching from them. Their forwards beat us with their combination of speed and skill and size. They won battles against the boards and in the paint (something Habs could not do) and they carved us up in open ice (and so did the Habs).

I think our D, because of youthfulness, gets a pass this year. Lot of the mistakes made were rookie mistakes. I'd be ok with moving Nisky as well and moving Myers up, btw. Let the kid learn and let him play through struggles if needed.

But our offense is in deep poop as far as SC contention goes and I don't really see any short term fixes. Patrick, Lindblom and Frost are huge wildcards. I don't expect them to change things fundamentally. Players will be difficult to move with those contracts.

One possibility is to move them at the TDL next year, when teams will be tempted to go for short term fixes and the cap hit will be prorated. Problem is, even with our flaws, we will be a playoff team, and our fans are too irrational to accept selling top players at such a stage, even though it is in the long run interest of the team.


login
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 08.21.2020

Aug 31 @ 2:55 PM ET
Flyers are not in a special situation. It is the same for every team. I agree that the circumstances that have resulted from the league stoppage is not normal but every team is facing the same challenges. Bottom line is this team has underachieved and numerous players have underachieved.
- MJL

Or numerous pLaywrs are not as good as they come were and we will continue to see a regression
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 2:55 PM ET


But our offense is in deep poop as far as SC contention goes and I don't really see any short term fixes. Patrick, Lindblom and Frost are huge wildcards. I don't expect them to change things fundamentally. Players will be difficult to move with those contracts.


- PT21


There are injury and health concerns for sure but adding in a player like Patrick when our current 3rd line center is Grant, is a strong upgrade. Adding in a strong two way forechecking winger capable of scoring 20+ goals also is a strong upgrade. Farabee will also progress. I think Frost will need some time to integrate next year but also adds skill and quickness.



One possibility is to move them at the TDL next year, when teams will be tempted to go for short term fixes and the cap hit will be prorated. Problem is, even with our flaws, we will be a playoff team, and our fans are too irrational to accept selling top players at such a stage, even though it is in the long run interest of the team.

- PT21


The players I think you're talking about will not be on expiring contracts.
Tomahawk
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi.
Joined: 02.04.2009

Aug 31 @ 2:57 PM ET
All of those are reasons for sure but to say that Giroux is not a big reason why they're down 3-1, is simply not accurate. He's been bad. That simple.
- MJL


In the scheme of things, he's one player. A very important one, but only one. If he were the only guy not pulling on the rope, then I'd have no qualms about pointing the finger at him. But the fail has been mostly team-wide.
Tomahawk
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi.
Joined: 02.04.2009

Aug 31 @ 2:59 PM ET
What a brutal 3rd period by Niskanen. Yea, when you're down, you want to take some chances but you have to do it smartly. Really poor decisions on his part. He's been a major disappointment in the playoffs.
- MJL


Agreed. Playing in the summer must really be (frank)ing with some of these guys' biological processes, because I don't remember G or Niskanen ever looking this lost before.
Scoob
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: love is love
Joined: 06.29.2006

Aug 31 @ 3:00 PM ET
W

We also have to acknowledge that MON did play well. Price was very strong and they shutdown our offence much like they did to Crosby and the Pens. NYI are playing well defensively and are frustrating the Flyers as well. They work hard and out work us and they are patient and wait for us to slip up. All their goals have been due to the Isles taking advantage of our mistakes and they are pretty big mistakes.

- xShoot4WarAmpsx


Montreal was basically that way, too. The Flyers bent but didn't break and squeaked out enough wins. Whether they can do that again remains to be seen.
Tomahawk
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi.
Joined: 02.04.2009

Aug 31 @ 3:01 PM ET
Him and Konecny have been the biggest disappointments IMO.
- BiggE


TK is pressing like a MFer.
login
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 08.21.2020

Aug 31 @ 3:25 PM ET
What can couturier get in a trade u peeps think
Landsbergfan
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Joined: 07.15.2014

Aug 31 @ 3:27 PM ET
I would agree that the 3-headed flyers head coach monster being outcoached. By TrotZ and his brilliant deputy Adam Lambert
- MJL


🥳
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 3:53 PM ET
In the scheme of things, he's one player. A very important one, but only one. If he were the only guy not pulling on the rope, then I'd have no qualms about pointing the finger at him. But the fail has been mostly team-wide.
- Tomahawk


It has been but they lost last night by how many goals? How has the PP been doing? Again, not all his fault but the top dogs get the glory and they should also get the criticism. To not point the finger at him is negligent. Can you tell me what team wins in the playoffs without their best offensive players producing?
hereticpride
New Jersey Devils
Location: HEY. Does this pole still work?, NJ
Joined: 01.14.2011

Aug 31 @ 3:55 PM ET
What can couturier get in a trade u peeps think
- login

He wouldn’t be the guy I trade right now. You can still build around him.
login
Philadelphia Flyers
Joined: 08.21.2020

Aug 31 @ 3:57 PM ET
He wouldn’t be the guy I trade right now. You can still build around him.
- hereticpride

Yea if you want to resign him for 8 years and 9/10 million. Even then it will diminished returns sooner rather than later imo

He gets you the biggest more fruitful return. That why I look to move him
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Aug 31 @ 4:01 PM ET
He wouldn’t be the guy I trade right now. You can still build around him.
- hereticpride



Couturier is untouchable as much as a player can be untouchable.
PLindbergh31
Location: NJ
Joined: 02.01.2008

Aug 31 @ 4:03 PM ET
Jackie Redmond
@Jackie_Redmond
16h
Barry Trotz: In my opinion that was the worst game we’ve played to this point. (Noted Greiss the exception). #Isles

And they still beat the Flyers last night. What does that say? Nothing good.
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