I am not a Colliton fan at all. But I am starting to feel sorry for him.

He comes in after the start of the 18/19 season following a Hawk icon with a bad roster and tries to install a new system after the season starts.

The roster is better in 19/20, but he loses Shaw, Seabs, DeHaan, Smith (17% of cap) to injury and one of his really good goalies is traded at the deadline.

The 20/21 roster is without Maatta and Saad, and has very questionable goaltending. It probably will be close to the youngest (and nearly the worst) roster in the league.

Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman, and Richard Irvin in their primes would have had a really tough time getting these teams to play much better than .500 hockey. (Colliton's NHL record 62-58-17.)

I was told yesterday that Saad was worth a first round pick plus more.
- GPHawksfan

By who? If it wasn't one of the 30 other GM's then if means (frank) all.

I'm on board with a rebuild but not like this.

These 4 core deserve more respect. And they deserve to know the plan.

Never thought I'd say this but "Where's John McDonough when you need him?"

He was a hard-ass and pretty old school but he had the utmost respect for his players and the franchise he ran.
- Tyler Cameron

I doubt Rocky gives a flying F.

Why do you consider Zadorov a meat head cause he hits hard and dosnt let players get in the goalies face? That's how players should play. I like Saad but I didn't consider him physical .
- HamiltonHawk

Saad was physical in the sense that he could hold his own in the down-low cycle, was tough to separate from the puck, and generally could win a board battle. As far as wingers go, the Hawks need (needed) more Saad-types, not less.

However, I’m not going to lament the trade... I’m ready for the tear down, ready for the departure of other “icons”, ready for the multi-year suck, the draft lotteries and potential rebuild into a contender again.

I waited decades for the Hawks to win, they rewarded my loyalty with three Cups in six years. I can ride this next downturn out for a long time...

I was told yesterday that Saad was worth a first round pick plus more.
- GPHawksfan

I was sort of one of them. I normally don’t estimate returns, but thought Saad would fetch more.

This is a brand new market. No one is taking on salary (or can really). One thing I’d tell everyone to keep in mind is that every team has to deal with this, and there may be some larger power shifts in the conferences.

Yes, I'm on board with a rebuild and have been for a couple of years, and I definitely agree that the plan (IF there is one - I'm still suspect), should have been shared with the core guys.

Wish they'd taken the NYR approach to it, both with the fans and their remaining core.
- pdx2ord

Bowman should tell the players if they are going in a larger way to rebuild. Players who won three Cups should expect it. They can ask about it if it isn't clear to them.

McDonough was more tuned into trying to keep fans in the seats b u staying competitive. Rebuild on the fly is not an easy task. Year after year no tier one prospects available with their first round draft slot.

Bowman rebuilt the depleted roster and they won two more Cups! That is quite an achievement. But if IF told rebuild is now a greater emphasis and core players can't accept it, to hell with loyalty. Trade them. I do not hold as much respect. Sports teams go on roller coaster rides. Peaks and valleys. Life often can be this way.

Deal with it. Any attitude is detrimental. O say let us loose each game if it comes down to too many kids in lineup. I want no crybaby. You compete and if you don't compete, if i am your teammate or a fan , I will be in your face about it. This is a job. Some players want to get along with everyone. More important to myself that I and all my teammates compete. If not, then get lost. No time for p*skies. You don't like, tough beans. You will get an earful no matter who you are. You have your rights. And i have mine. I don't have to be liked. I play with intensity and appreciate having a job. I was above average but never a stsr. So I believe you give your all.

If you disagree then I zd T iously question your attitude. I do not want or relish getting in someone's face. But we choose to care and lead by example or be a lazy attitude sob.

Maybe, I have no way of knowing what the COVID-19 impact is on their booze business.
- walleyeb1

Retail up and wholesale down? There are basically zero restaurants and large venues. Either way, although everyone likes to think booze subsidizes hockey we don't really know?

Paying guys for past performance and out of loyalty gets you two tickets aboard the Titanic.

Sports is a ruthless world, and you have to be constantly two steps ahead of the game. Look at what the Canucks did letting Markstrom go. They saw they had the contracts of Hughes and Petterson coming up, as well as having Demko to replace Markstrom, so they made the right call. Is it going to be popular with the fans, no...but it is the right call. Look to how Belichik handles the Patriots.

Seabrook is a perfect example. They should have offered him a short term deal, or simply let him go. A few years back, they could have drafted Vasilevsky, instead of Teravainen. Future asset management. Crawford was already up there in age, with no potential replacement in the system...how would they be looking in the net today? How is Teuvo doing with the Hawks nowadays anyways?

I liked Saad, but he never really was the sum of his parts. With his size, speed and skill, he should have been a regular 1st liner with 35 goals a year. Not a finisher. For all the hate for Toews and Kane and their big money deals, do not forget that Saad and his Daddy also went after the Hawks for big money, leading to the Hawks dealing him away, for nothing (see a theme emerging here...bad asset management). What is the net asset acquired for Panarin now? Looks to me like Nikita Zadarov?

I only hope they get rid of Bowman, and get a competent GM in here for what should be the inevitable Kane deal. That potential deal should not and cannot be screwed up. Between Kane, Toews and Keith, if the Hawks play it right, they should end up with a host of 1st round picks, and some top prospects. But, it would not surprise me to see the team let all three of them retire as Hawks and get nothing out of it.
- plyrs99

I’m thinking more and more that Stan is not the right man for a tear down/rebuild project. Hopefully, he proves us wrong.

If that’s the view of his value around the league, his next contract should be very affordable - even for Stan.
- StLBravesFan

You don't think Saad was overpaid at his current contract fro what he provides?

[quote=jhawk59]Bowman should tell the players if they are going in a larger way to rebuild. Players who won three Cups should expect it. They can ask about it if it isn't clear to them.

McDonough was more tuned into trying to keep fans in the seats by staying competitive. Rebuild on the fly is not an easy task. Year after year no tier one prospects available with their first round draft slot.

Bowman rebuilt the depleted roster and they won two more Cups! That is quite an achievement. But if IF told rebuild is now a greater emphasis and core players can't accept it, to hell with loyalty. Trade them. I do not hold as much respect. Sports teams go on roller coaster rides. Peaks and valleys. Life often can be this way.

Deal with it. Any attitude is detrimental. I say let us loose each game if it comes down to too many kids in lineup. I want no crybaby. You compete and if you don't compete, if i am your teammate or a fan , I will be in your face about it. This is a job. Some players want to get along with everyone. More important to myself that I and all my teammates compete. If not, then get lost. No time for p*skies. You don't like, tough beans. You will get an earful no matter who you are. You have your rights. And i have mine. I don't have to be liked. I play with intensity and appreciate having a job. I was above average but never a star. So I i developed a belief you give your all.

If you disagree then I seriously question your attitude. I do not want or relish getting in someone's face. But we choose to care and lead by example or be a lazy attitude sob. I am nosy to the point of wanting to know the truth or circumstances.. ...it cam out when I did some writing for newspapers when I was younger and it is who I am.

Has Saad improved since 2015? Has Saad performed up to his contract? I think Saad is overvalued by the board. This raised my eyebrow about Saad when I saw this a month ago. I know this is Pierre spouting off, but he is pretty plugged in to sources:

https://nhltradetalk.com/...on-saad-trade-blackhawks/

Torts was not a fan of Saad’s compete level

https://www.dispatch.com/...e-1-after-blowup-on-bench

I also am not a fan of well this player played 3 d minutes and against 3rd line players, while our guy is a top 6. Well Zadorov is a top 4 with the Hawks, and if he replaces Keith on the PK to me is a plus. Conversely there are several teams (Vegas, Rangers, Washington) where Saad would not (except for injury) not see top 6 minutes

I too thought Saad would return more. Looks like I also had home town bias in that assessment.
- LAHawk

Neither was Q at times. One thing I think Saad did do is become more consistent.

By who? If it wasn't one of the 30 other GM's then if means (frank) all.
- 6628

No poop it means (frank) all. It was from someone that post ed on here and many others agreed and continue to overvalue what a return on players they want traded should be.

You don't think Saad was overpaid at his current contract fro what he provides?
- GPHawksfan

Under normal circumstances - at $6MM? Probably not.

Under current league financial circumstances? Probably.

Meaning - again - his next contract - under similar financial circumstances - should be affordable.

[quote=vabeachbear]Oh that's out there, during the lock down booze sales were definitely up

Down here in the South, State owns the liquor stores. They get a lot of revenue from it. Those stores were never locked down.

It makes sense if you think about it. There were lots of night driveway drinking parties in our neighborhood, and lots of drinking zoom calls as well.
I'm sure retail is up but wholesale is likely non existent and may be bigger?

I was sort of one of them. I normally don’t estimate returns, but thought Saad would fetch more.

This is a brand new market. No one is taking on salary (or can really). One thing I’d tell everyone to keep in mind is that every team has to deal with this, and there may be some larger power shifts in the conferences.
- Chunk

I agree its a new market but look at the trades last trade deadline. Rental wingers that are middling in production didn't get a first round pick plus extras. That was right before covid hit

Under normal circumstances - at $6MM? Probably not.

Under current league financial circumstances? Probably.

Meaning - again - his next contract - under similar financial circumstances - should be affordable.
- StLBravesFan

You'd pay a 20 goal 40 point winger $6M? That's way too much in my oipinion. And don't give me this crap about his defensive play. It's not like he was Selke level at playing defense either. He was adequate

Has Saad improved since 2015? Has Saad performed up to his contract? I think Saad is overvalued by the board. This raised my eyebrow about Saad when I saw this a month ago. I know this is Pierre spouting off, but he is pretty plugged in to sources:

https://nhltradetalk.com/...on-saad-trade-blackhawks/

Torts was not a fan of Saad’s compete level

https://www.dispatch.com/...e-1-after-blowup-on-bench

I also am not a fan of well this player played 3 d minutes and against 3rd line players, while our guy is a top 6. Well Zadorov is a top 4 with the Hawks, and if he replaces Keith on the PK to me is a plus. Conversely there are several teams (Vegas, Rangers, Washington) where Saad would not (except for injury) not see top 6 minutes

I too thought Saad would return more. Looks like I also had home town bias in that assessment.
- LAHawk

Agree with this post. Further, don't understand all this love for Saad as a "powerfoward that plays a 200' game." Yes he was defensively responsible and has speed, but was not remotely physical and rarely hit anyone. I don't remember ever seeing him mix it up in defense of a teammate. Not that he was a pansy, but hardly a formidable presence on the ice. And yes his speed generated plenty of chances, but his hands betrayed him more often than not. His numbers are what they are. Would I want a great return? Of course, but it takes 2 to tango and I like the direction of bigger more physical on the backend. Zadorov will be an important presence and that's big for this Hawks team. I'll bet he will not just be a 5-6 Dman on this team.. Just my opinion...

I’m thinking more and more that Stan is not the right man for a tear down/rebuild project. Hopefully, he proves us wrong.
- Chief4Feathers

I don't think Kane, Toews and Keith are worth a quarter of what everyone says they are worth?

Agree with this post. Further, don't understand all this love for Saad as a "powerfoward that plays a 200' game." Yes he was defensively responsible and has speed, but was not remotely physical and rarely hit anyone. I don't remember ever seeing him mix it up in defense of a teammate. Not that he was a pansy, but hardly a formidable presence on the ice. And yes his speed generated plenty of chances, but his hands betrayed him more often than not. His numbers are what they are. Would I want a great return? Of course, but it takes 2 to tango and I like the direction of bigger more physical on the backend. Zadorov will be an important presence and that's big for this Hawks team. I'll bet he will not just be a 5-6 Dman on this team.. Just my opinion...
- CtHawksMan

I think when people refer to him as physical they mean that he goes to the net and doesn't shy away from the corners. A different style of physical player.

I don't think Kane, Toews and Keith are worth a quarter of what everyone says they are worth?
- rpeters01

Especially right now.

I don't think anyone thinks Toews should have taken less than what he could get, anyone who says they wouldn't have done the same is probably being disingenuous. That's not what "he's crying all the way to the bank" implies, at least not for me. Rather, it implies that he should take more ownership of the situation his mega contract contributed in causing the situation. The Hawks have had to play the salary cap purge game for years and I have never heard Toews acknowledge his role in causing the problem. If he had acknowledged that had he taken less it would have resulted in more cap space for Stan to use to keep the roster Cup contender status - then I would have more RESPECT for him but to my knowledge he hasn't done that so I could care less that he feels slighted by not being a part of the management process.
- EbonyRaptor

I can respect this take, for sure. And, deep down, I suspect they do realize that their own contracts, when combined with a cap that did not rise as planned, has led to this. I'm sure Kane had a good long think on that when he lost Panarin as a line partner. I think they can recognize it and not like what it has meant for the team, but I don't like the idea they should feel guilty for taking the money offered to them. The guy offering is the one who owns those decisions' impact on our cap situation.

I can be for the rebuild (I am), think it will mean the remaining core leaving if Stan can find a trading partner (sad end of an era), and still not like what I'm hearing about how Stan has supposedly dealt with those guys in recent years.

In the end, I think we're all not happy with where the team is now and are questioning some of the moves that got us here. Now, it's just wait and see and hope for a brighter future.

Under normal circumstances - at $6MM? Probably not.

Under current league financial circumstances? Probably.

Meaning - again - his next contract - under similar financial circumstances - should be affordable.
- StLBravesFan

And - following the trade out - is a third-pairing defenseman with perhaps good defensive skills (if he’s protected) and apparently few offensive capabilities - worth $3.2MM in today’s (or any) market?

I have many many thoughts on recent Hawks news.........

1. Bowman is such an overrated GM & i've said this for years just not recently. He inherited a plethora of young talent- any competent GM would've been able to make the supplemental moves he made around an already built championship roster. He's crippled this franchise with bad drafting, bad free agent signings and even worse... signing his own talent to over market value long-term contracts.

2. Hawks BS/marketing "One Goal" continued three years too long - this thing should've been blown up LONG ago.

3. On that note above it was priceless to listen to the plethora of Hawks fans, who after the "win" against the Oilers, honestly believed this team had a chance to do... anything... in this playoff run.

4. Did people really think they'd get more for Saad? I read a few folks, on other threads, lament the fact that somehow the team should've held onto him into this season with the belief that they'd get MORE for him. Hilarious.

My frustration lies with the fact that this FO still doesn't have a plan. Three years ago everything should've been stripped down and a rebuild should've occurred. This latest Saad move actually flies in the face of what Bowman said just days ago about going to a full on youth movement. If you're truly trying to go young you trade Saad for pick (s) and maybe a young projectable player not for a 3/4 defenseman whose contract is up after next year.

Oh yes... who is the new leader of this entire organization with McDonough gone?

[quote=jhawk59]Bowman should tell the players if they are going in a larger way to rebuild. Players who won three Cups should expect it. They can ask about it if it isn't clear to them.

McDonough was more tuned into trying to keep fans in the seats by staying competitive. Rebuild on the fly is not an easy task. Year after year no tier one prospects available with their first round draft slot.

Bowman rebuilt the depleted roster and they won two more Cups! That is quite an achievement. But if IF told rebuild is now a greater emphasis and core players can't accept it, to hell with loyalty. Trade them. I do not hold as much respect. Sports teams go on roller coaster rides. Peaks and valleys. Life often can be this way.

Deal with it. Any attitude is detrimental. I say let us loose each game if it comes down to too many kids in lineup. I want no crybaby. You compete and if you don't compete, if i am your teammate or a fan , I will be in your face about it. This is a job. Some players want to get along with everyone. More important to myself that I and all my teammates compete. If not, then get lost. No time for p*skies. You don't like, tough beans. You will get an earful no matter who you are. You have your rights. And i have mine. I don't have to be liked. I play with intensity and appreciate having a job. I was above average but never a star. So I i developed a belief you give your all.

If you disagree then I seriously question your attitude. I do not want or relish getting in someone's face. But we choose to care and lead by example or be a lazy attitude sob. I am nosy to the point of wanting to know the truth or circumstances.. ...it cam out when I did some writing for newspapers when I was younger and it is who I am.
- jhawk59

Bolded - that absolutely did not happen......

You'd pay a 20 goal 40 point winger $6M? That's way too much in my oipinion. And don't give me this crap about his defensive play. It's not like he was Selke level at playing defense either. He was adequate
- GPHawksfan

Then the market would reflect that and Stan should be able to negotiate a contract at $4 or $5 MM.

Stan does not seem able to negotiate well - look at the “core” contracts he signed, many think AdB’s contract is too high, I think Kubalik (at one season in) won the negotiations, Panarin, Lehner, Crawford, Saad (twice) moved very early in the negotiation process - did any real negotiations go on, or did Stan just give up and take the easy way out?

The market determines value, artificially hindered the the hard cap, but still true within it. If all Stan could get for Saad was a third pairing defenseman (plus cash savings for the family), then the market is implying that Saad won’t match his current contract next time out.