I am learning more and more about underlying stats and numbers and do appreciate them. but I also argue with the all in folks quite often as well.

here is one of my takes that I love to debate.
I am not a Jake Gardiner fan, not at all but the analytics crowd loves him based on his underlying numbers. this is how I can best describe this. imagine jay walking 1000 times a year, this is a crime and analytics would show negatively towards this. now Jake Gardiner never jay walks but commits murder three times a year, only 3 crimes but far worse by my "eye test" but going by underlying numbers Gardiner is the better player based on far less overall crimes. it can not weight the crime.
- Ross77

I thought we agreed to drop Gardiner because you’re biased to hate him and I’m biased to die building his altar on a mountain

https://twitter.com/jfres.../1264259130157682690?s=21

Sorry, dude
- Rexypoo

Well if Joe Fresh says so.....I wouldn't dare question his tweets.

In what was is the analysis biased? Elaborate
- Rexypoo

The biases I object to most are:

*the analytic community is convinced that the most relevant measures of good hockey are accounted for using their tools
*that the environment played in (ie. locker room dynamics, coaching instruction, illness, injury, mentoring, opportunities, systems, etc.) doesn’t change the relative measurements compared with peers around the league
*things such as scoring chances are very subjective and I don’t trust the way these and some other stats are gathered (tracing puck velocity will help a little)
*distortion of things such as possession time can be caused by scoring a goal (when you score the time of your possession stops for celly and faceoff and when you don’t score the time of possession is increased as there is no whistle)
*character is contagious and matters

I do think that teams measure and assess things not available to the analytics community. Each team likely has a few secrets (for now) that they use to evaluate players. Evidence is that in recent years there has been a few signings by so called analytic GMs that don’t seem to fit.

Well if Joe Fresh says so.....I wouldn't dare question his tweets.
- bennythehat

And I guess some of the best hockey analysts in the World are all not a smart as our resident troll Rexy when they all unanimously selected DD him as a top 4 Dman for Team Canada's Olympic team 2022

Bike Guy mentioned a fight between Schiefele and Lowry. Is this an issue still brewing or has it been resolved?

Hoping they keep Laine as I am not convinced they have enough scoring otherwise.

Have seen some of the chosen fourth jerseys that each team will be promoting this year. Many have been disappointing. I hope the Jets can bounce back from their alternate from the past year. They had nailed it with their outdoor unis from both occasions only to drop the ball last time. If any desire to pull out one from the past I'd prefer their whites from their last few seasons before the move or their old WHA ones with the red name bar.

The biases I object to most are:

*the analytic community is convinced that the most relevant measures of good hockey are accounted for using their tools
*that the environment played in (ie. locker room dynamics, coaching instruction, illness, injury, mentoring, opportunities, systems, etc.) doesn’t change the relative measurements compared with peers around the league
*things such as scoring chances are very subjective and I don’t trust the way these and some other stats are gathered (tracing puck velocity will help a little)
*distortion of things such as possession time can be caused by scoring a goal (when you score the time of your possession stops for celly and faceoff and when you don’t score the time of possession is increased as there is no whistle)
*character is contagious and matters

I do think that teams measure and assess things not available to the analytics community. Each team likely has a few secrets (for now) that they use to evaluate players. Evidence is that in recent years there has been a few signings by so called analytic GMs that don’t seem to fit.
- 2.0

I would be an analytics person if they came up with something that effectively captures everything. I’m waiting for ‘the god stat’

In what was is the analysis biased? Elaborate
- Rexypoo

Your question doesn't make sense. My reply was not about any specific analysis.

I don't know sometimes (shakes head). Your whole argument is that the "eye test" is the definitive way of judging a players performance. Yet at the same time anybody can have a different opinion about a player like they do with art.
- BWJumper

Outside of the following: scoring goals, player speed, player weight and height, everything in hockey is subjective. We can measure goals, we can measure how fast a player skates, we can measure how hard a player shoots the puck, we can measure hieight and weight and universally agree on It all.

All other stats and the eye test just confirm people's biases towards certain players they like. For example just because I like Scheifele and Connor, I can find statistics that support my own eye test that say they are great players.

At the end of the day all we do here is express opinions and discuss rumours. And we try to do so by using statistics to strengthen our discussion points.

Some people on this board take their own opinions as fact, which I find highly laughable.

Outside of the following: scoring goals, player speed, player weight and height, everything in hockey is subjective. We can measure goals, we can measure how fast a player skates, we can measure how hard a player shoots the puck, we can measure hieight and weight and universally agree on It all.

All other stats and the eye test just confirm people's biases towards certain players they like. For example just because I like Scheifele and Connor, I can find statistics that support my own eye test that say they are great players.

At the end of the day all we do here is express opinions and discuss rumours. And we try to do so by using statistics to strengthen our discussion points.

Some people on this board take their own opinions as fact, which I find highly laughable.
- TheUltimateJet

It should be Mandatory to begin every comment with "Im My Opinion".

[quote=justsaying]Bike Guy mentioned a fight between Schiefele and Lowry. Is this an issue still brewing or has it been resolved?

I think Lowry would be gone if it was that big of an issue. As I recall, the Jets posted a photo on social media of Lowry and Schiefele together (Golfing, I think) last spring.

It should be Mandatory to begin every comment with "Im My Opinion".
- bennythehat

I agree! If you notice, I have been doing that as it appears some posters get upset by my factual reporting.

I thought we agreed to drop Gardiner because you’re biased to hate him and I’m biased to die building his altar on a mountain
- Rexypoo

Hahahahaha

Kulikov got 1yr, 1.5m from Devils.

Well if Joe Fresh says so.....I wouldn't dare question his tweets.
- bennythehat

Read the article, you parsnip

And I guess some of the best hockey analysts in the World are all not a smart as our resident troll Rexy when they all unanimously selected DD him as a top 4 Dman for Team Canada's Olympic team 2022
- jetsnation

Weird how all of those analysts don’t actually work for NHL teams. Or any teams.

The biases I object to most are:

*the analytic community is convinced that the most relevant measures of good hockey are accounted for using their tools
*that the environment played in (ie. locker room dynamics, coaching instruction, illness, injury, mentoring, opportunities, systems, etc.) doesn’t change the relative measurements compared with peers around the league
*things such as scoring chances are very subjective and I don’t trust the way these and some other stats are gathered (tracing puck velocity will help a little)
*distortion of things such as possession time can be caused by scoring a goal (when you score the time of your possession stops for celly and faceoff and when you don’t score the time of possession is increased as there is no whistle)
*character is contagious and matters

I do think that teams measure and assess things not available to the analytics community. Each team likely has a few secrets (for now) that they use to evaluate players. Evidence is that in recent years there has been a few signings by so called analytic GMs that don’t seem to fit.
- 2.0

-They are correct in that assumption.
-These factors can be tracked. Player performance changing as they move from team to team, or as a result of a coaching change is not difficult to notice.
-Okay? So nobody knows what a scoring chance is? Wtf
-Possession time doesn’t mean a whole lot to me, so I guess I either agree with you here, or don’t care.
-And how would you say character can impact performance in a way that isn’t traceable in the results?

Outside of the following: scoring goals, player speed, player weight and height, everything in hockey is subjective. We can measure goals, we can measure how fast a player skates, we can measure how hard a player shoots the puck, we can measure hieight and weight and universally agree on It all.

All other stats and the eye test just confirm people's biases towards certain players they like. For example just because I like Scheifele and Connor, I can find statistics that support my own eye test that say they are great players.

At the end of the day all we do here is express opinions and discuss rumours. And we try to do so by using statistics to strengthen our discussion points.

Some people on this board take their own opinions as fact, which I find highly laughable.
- TheUltimateJet

Scheifele and Connor ARE great players. Same goes for Laine, Wheeler, Morrissey, etc.
The mistake a lot of people make is not understanding that your best players are role players in the same way as your 4th liners.

Scheifele is our best player. Period. But he is not 2010 god tier Pavel Datsyuk. Scheifele has weaknesses, and a unique style of play. He would honestly fare better with Brandon Tanev on his left than he does Kyle Connor, because Tanev defends very well, and plays at the same high pace as Scheifele.

Weird how all of those analysts don’t actually work for NHL teams. Or any teams.
- Rexypoo

This is a good post!

In my opinion.

This is a good post!

In my opinion.
- TheUltimateJet

I chuckled. This is funny.
In my opinion.

Read the article, you parsnip
- Rexypoo

Ignoring the post as you did not begin with "In my opinion".

Ignoring the post as you did not begin with "In my opinion".
- bennythehat

TL;DR

A: all of the things you’re describing as not being taken into account are, in fact, easily identified and tracked in the results.
B: some of the best players in the league go unrecognized because a lot of teams ignore this information. Do you think Oliver Bjorkstrand is the best player on the Blue Jackets? Because he is.
C: Some scouts absolutely track players this way, but a lot of it has to be done in person. The information just isn’t widely available at lower levels.
D: f*ck barstool and anyone still on board with them.
- Rexypoo

Well A-D certainly didn't change my opinion one bet. But anyway, with A, not correct in any sense. B. Jones is the best player on the Jackets. C. No, scouts are paid to watch the players in their surroundings. Some guys are stiffed with weak supporting casts, and you need to see how they read the game in person to understand. D. Barstool is helping grow the game of hockey. So relax. I don't agree or believe everything I hear on their platform, but they do have some good content and bring in more fans which is a big Win. Are you sure your name isn't John Chyka?

Last note, as we speak, several teams are being investigated for paying coaches of minor league teams to reduce the stats of certain players in hopes of lowering their draft position. This isn't the first time this has occurred, and if you are a OHL coach making 60k a year, a solid bribe seems pretty entertaining when you know the kid you are "sewering" is going to the NHL anyway. So they mess with their analytics/linemates/roles to make it happen. I do not support this, but its another reason why good scouts need to use their eyes to value these players.

[quote=justsaying]Bike Guy mentioned a fight between Schiefele and Lowry. Is this an issue still brewing or has it been resolved?

I think Lowry would be gone if it was that big of an issue. As I recall, the Jets posted a photo on social media of Lowry and Schiefele together (Golfing, I think) last spring.
- bennythehat

So..... it's all good. Lowry's (now ex) girlfriend and Scheiffs may have shared a bottle of vino on a couple occasions. As you would all expect, Lowry landed a few good blows and Schieffs took em like a champ. Sounds like even calling the girl Lowry's "girlfriend" may have been a stretch, so the guys are all good now. No big deal, just two alpha's working things out.

Good on Scheiffs tho. Lowry is one of the toughest guys in this league and needs to start using that to his advantage a little more. Maybe he was trying to spark his inner beast. I was absolutely disgusted he didn't do a single thing when Schieffs took that nasty ankle stomp. Made Wheeler do the dirty work. I have a real love/hate for Lowry. Just run guys through the boards every shift, and beat the bark off anyone who takes a shot at the top 6 guys. That's all, and the city will love you.

Well A-D certainly didn't change my opinion one bet. But anyway, with A, not correct in any sense. B. Jones is the best player on the Jackets. C. No, scouts are paid to watch the players in their surroundings. Some guys are stiffed with weak supporting casts, and you need to see how they read the game in person to understand. D. Barstool is helping grow the game of hockey. So relax. I don't agree or believe everything I hear on their platform, but they do have some good content and bring in more fans which is a big Win. Are you sure your name isn't John Chyka?

Last note, as we speak, several teams are being investigated for paying coaches of minor league teams to reduce the stats of certain players in hopes of lowering their draft position. This isn't the first time this has occurred, and if you are a OHL coach making 60k a year, a solid bribe seems pretty entertaining when you know the kid you are "sewering" is going to the NHL anyway. So they mess with their analytics/linemates/roles to make it happen. I do not support this, but its another reason why good scouts need to use their eyes to value these players.
- bikeguy99

A: leaving this alone, because B through D show you don’t listen.
B: He wasn’t. He was literally a huge defensive liability. Read anything at all that has his actual on ice numbers involved. Jesus. Watch him get stuck in the cycle for a full shift multiple times per game. Seth Jones struggles whenever he’s south of his own blueline.
C: Again. These things can be tracked. Almost everything I use or reference is designed to account for team play, linemates, and usage. We know Erik Karlsson is likely the best defenceman of his entire generation because he was able to force a lottery team into the playoffs for years.
D: Barstool has been seeing a steady stream of accusations for their misconduct and treatment of employees, the quality of people in their management, and the things they allow to be said or published on their platform. Sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, you name it. Garbage company run by garbage people.

As for the bribing of coaches... if I’m running an NHL team, I’m having my own scouting done. Discrepancies like that would be noticed when compared to the info your guys recorded.
Bearing that in mind, it’s not that important as far as the puck possession numbers go at the junior level. Nobody is talking you into taking Logan Stanley in round 1 because of possession numbers. You know he’s a 4th round lottery ticket because he’s got so many visible holes.

Kyle Connor was a monster in college. He absolutely should’ve been a 1st round pick. You accept that young players coming in will struggle with play driving and defence, and you put them in positions to help develop their skills. This is where Maurice fails. Connor is Patrick Kane, but he’s being played like Toews. One needed support while he destroyed goalies so his team didn’t suffer, the other did everything himself.

So..... it's all good. Lowry's (now ex) girlfriend and Scheiffs may have shared a bottle of vino on a couple occasions. As you would all expect, Lowry landed a few good blows and Schieffs took em like a champ. Sounds like even calling the girl Lowry's "girlfriend" may have been a stretch, so the guys are all good now. No big deal, just two alpha's working things out.

Good on Scheiffs tho. Lowry is one of the toughest guys in this league and needs to start using that to his advantage a little more. Maybe he was trying to spark his inner beast. I was absolutely disgusted he didn't do a single thing when Schieffs took that nasty ankle stomp. Made Wheeler do the dirty work. I have a real love/hate for Lowry. Just run guys through the boards every shift, and beat the bark off anyone who takes a shot at the top 6 guys. That's all, and the city will love you.
- bikeguy99

Imagine blaming Adam Lowry for Paul Maurice’s decision not to put him on the ice with Tkachuk, and for Wheeler’s decision to fight