I think these past two years have proven that Barry Trotz is a threat regardless of what roster he has to work with. I would not count the Isles out so long as Trotz is the bench boss in NYI.
I think Philly only goes up from here. I don’t think people realize that Niskanen was really dragging and had become an uber over paid bottom pairing d man in way too big a role. Philly is what the Pens should be: aging stars surrounded by young, exciting players and I have to begrudgingly admit AV is good at what he does. I think they’re a lock to come out of the metro at this point, whether it’s out right or as a wild card. Carolina, Philly, and Washington will definitely make the playoffs. NYI probably will on the back of Trotz. We’re next man in the last one the bubble as maybe maybe not. - Victoro311
Agree with all of this except I don't think Washington is a lock. Three of their top forwards are getting pretty old and they are capped out with only 11 forwards signed. Hags is probably trending downward, too. They overpaid for Schultz and Dillon, IMO, and can Carlson maintain his insane production at age 31? Their goaltending seems average until proven otherwise. Also a new coach is a wildcard.
Location: "Give him a chance" -Barnaby36, PA Joined: 06.25.2011
Oct 24 @ 9:33 AM ET
Agree with all of this except I don't think Washington is a lock. Three of their top forwards are getting pretty old and they are capped out with only 11 forwards signed. Hags is probably trending downward, too. They overpaid for Schultz and Dillon, IMO, and can Carlson maintain his insane production at age 31? Their goaltending seems average until proven otherwise. Also a new coach is a wildcard. - Hockey66
Yea I don't get putting Washington above us. We have just as good a chance as them.
Rutherford didn't make the trade to move Hornie's contract. Matheson's salary is the same as Hornqvist, assuming he hits his bonuses (CapFriendly) and why would you trade for him if you didn't think he was good enough to do so. The money is backloaded and his cap hit is lower but not his true salary.
This trade was a trade just to make a trade, nothing more. - Thunderbolt
It was a bad contract for a bad contract. Hornqvist has a bad contract. Any difference in cap was going to require a sweetener so JR got par=par
Point is Hornqvist was not going to be moved for any type of valuable piece. He is trash and was traded for some other teams trash
Better players with shorter term are impossible to move right now. Hornqvist would have been no exception
Well, the good news in the expansion is that Marino would not need to be protected since he is only a 2nd year pro.
I would rather have a Dominik Simon on the fourth line than defensive specialists with literally no offensive upside.
So Simon has more offense than the guys on the fourth line?
Simon: 64GP 7G 15A
Aston-Reese: 57 GP 6G 7A
Blueger: 69GP 9G 13A
Tanev: 68GP 11G 14A
Lafferty: 50GP 6G 7A
Even Galchenyuk had better offense than Simon: 45GP 5G 12A
I actually think Blueger and Tanev should play on the "3rd line" over Jankowski and Rodrigues. They can at least drive play and hopefully McCann can find his shot and they can score some goals.
Nobody hates Tanev, that's ridiculous. You may not like his contract, but that's just sour grapes.
Hornqvist did not ride shotgun with Sid or Geno. He got some power play time and the occasional shift with one of them. He played with McCann. - Thunderbolt
This. Criticisms of Hornqvist have gotten silly again. He may fall of a cliff, but he's been a 20 goal guy his whole career including without generational centers in Nashville. Would have been this year too while playing with McCann and seeing way less PP time. (Only 3 PP goals).
Location: "Give him a chance" -Barnaby36, PA Joined: 06.25.2011
Oct 25 @ 10:19 AM ET
This. Criticisms of Hornqvist have gotten silly again. He may fall of a cliff, but he's been a 20 goal guy his whole career including without generational centers in Nashville. Would have been this year too while playing with McCann and seeing way less PP time. (Only 3 PP goals). - Tojo.
Yea he was definitely in the 20's again this year with a full season. I thought he was still a very useful player. Was his contract a tad high? Maybe a little. I think he was a casualty to the flap cap/Ruth making changes. Regular circumstances I believe he's still here.
This. Criticisms of Hornqvist have gotten silly again. He may fall of a cliff, but he's been a 20 goal guy his whole career including without generational centers in Nashville. Would have been this year too while playing with McCann and seeing way less PP time. (Only 3 PP goals). - Tojo.
Hornqvist actually had a really good season. He posted his second highest 5v5 scoring rate of his career on a shooting percentage that was only slightly on the high side of his career average (not a huge anomaly). I think it was smart to move on from Hornqvist sooner rather than later, but betting that Hornqvist wouldn’t fall off a cliff yet coming off one of his better offensive seasons would have been a smarter gamble than betting that a mediocre bottom pairing d man making top 4 money would be a valuable asset for us moving forward. Add in the hindsight and context of the rest of our off season moves where we did absolutely nothing to replace Hornqvist in the top 9 and the decision to trade him was pretty objectively bad even though the idea of moving on from him was theoretically sound.
Hornqvist actually had a really good season. He posted his second highest 5v5 scoring rate of his career on a shooting percentage that was only slightly on the high side of his career average (not a huge anomaly). I think it was smart to move on from Hornqvist sooner rather than later, but betting that Hornqvist wouldn’t fall off a cliff yet coming off one of his better offensive seasons would have been a smarter gamble than betting that a mediocre bottom pairing d man making top 4 money would be a valuable asset for us moving forward. Add in the hindsight and context of the rest of our off season moves where we did absolutely nothing to replace Hornqvist in the top 9 and the decision to trade him was pretty objectively bad even though the idea of moving on from him was theoretically sound. - Victoro311
This pretty much sums it up. I'll add that I don't believe JR had any real plan in place. JR sees some players, gets a fixation thinking he's found the diamond in the rough and better act fast before anyone else notices. Maybe he wanted to send a message as well by moving Hornqvist, but this wasn't the trade to do it.
Hornqvist actually had a really good season. He posted his second highest 5v5 scoring rate of his career on a shooting percentage that was only slightly on the high side of his career average (not a huge anomaly). I think it was smart to move on from Hornqvist sooner rather than later, but betting that Hornqvist wouldn’t fall off a cliff yet coming off one of his better offensive seasons would have been a smarter gamble than betting that a mediocre bottom pairing d man making top 4 money would be a valuable asset for us moving forward. Add in the hindsight and context of the rest of our off season moves where we did absolutely nothing to replace Hornqvist in the top 9 and the decision to trade him was pretty objectively bad even though the idea of moving on from him was theoretically sound. - Victoro311
Yep, agree with all this. I want to give full credit to Hornqvist but also acknowledge he can easily fall off. Smart to move him, just not for what we did.
I think these past two years have proven that Barry Trotz is a threat regardless of what roster he has to work with. I would not count the Isles out so long as Trotz is the bench boss in NYI.
I think Philly only goes up from here. I don’t think people realize that Niskanen was really dragging and had become an uber over paid bottom pairing d man in way too big a role. Philly is what the Pens should be: aging stars surrounded by young, exciting players and I have to begrudgingly admit AV is good at what he does. I think they’re a lock to come out of the metro at this point, whether it’s out right or as a wild card. Carolina, Philly, and Washington will definitely make the playoffs. NYI probably will on the back of Trotz. We’re next man in the last one the bubble as maybe maybe not. - Victoro311
Late response because I just saw this. Isles only have about 9M in cap space and still need to sign Barzel and Pulock, so they aren't done losing guys. There's maybe 10 teams in similar situations.
The point I was trying to make was that we all see the Pens holes, but in this climate, every team has them and is and almost every playoff team is worse then they were entering the bubble while the Pens are closer to treading water.
I'll agree Niskanen is declining, but they don't have a replacement and that's a problem and a hard hole to patch.
Yep, agree with all this. I want to give full credit to Hornqvist but also acknowledge he can easily fall off. Smart to move him, just not for what we did. - Tojo.
His possession did absolutely crater this season so a steep fall off is well within the realm of possibility. Holding onto him for much longer would have been a pretty big gamble, but again, it’s a better gamble than Matheson.
His possession did absolutely crater this season so a steep fall off is well within the realm of possibility. Holding onto him for much longer would have been a pretty big gamble, but again, it’s a better gamble than Matheson. - Victoro311
This all sound like Kessel last year. Can you imagine if we had held onto Kessel and he had the same drop off? Talk about untradeable
Hornqvist is entering that territory sooner than later. No upside left, only downsides
The Matheson signing this past offseason was a huge gamble on the part of GMJR. If Matheson does not pan out that could be a much worse deal than the JJ one, with very long term impacts on the organization. If it does pan out then it makes GMJR look very good, since that is a fair price for a good defensemen.
Basically I think Matheson should have at most two season to prove himself. If he doesn't then it should cost GMJR his job at that point.
Let's say Matheson is at the very least an upgrade over JJ and the 3rd pair is able to do their job and not be a liability; if that happens then I think the Pens only real shot is if Poulin proves capable of driving offense at a 3rd line rate, but I would put him on the 1st line with Sid and I would bump Tanev to the 2nd line with Geno.
Jake-Sid-Poulin
Tanev-Geno-Rust
Zucker-McCann-Kap
Between ZAR, Blueger, ERod, Jank and Scevior they can make a decent 4th line.
I think this is the best shot of spreading the wealth. I believe Tanev can be a Dupuis-Type in the top-six. If Sheary and Simon can be trusted in the top-six, I don't see why Tanev can't and if he's going to get paid that money anyway then why not try to get the most out of him?
Hornqvist actually had a really good season. He posted his second highest 5v5 scoring rate of his career on a shooting percentage that was only slightly on the high side of his career average (not a huge anomaly). I think it was smart to move on from Hornqvist sooner rather than later, but betting that Hornqvist wouldn’t fall off a cliff yet coming off one of his better offensive seasons would have been a smarter gamble than betting that a mediocre bottom pairing d man making top 4 money would be a valuable asset for us moving forward. Add in the hindsight and context of the rest of our off season moves where we did absolutely nothing to replace Hornqvist in the top 9 and the decision to trade him was pretty objectively bad even though the idea of moving on from him was theoretically sound. - Victoro311
I can understand you would rather trade a player a year too soon rather than a year too late. That is good business.
You did hit the nail on the head, the moves so far are just headscratchers. This off season just seams like Rutherford has no plan and is making moves just to make moves.
This all sound like Kessel last year. Can you imagine if we had held onto Kessel and he had the same drop off? Talk about untradeable
Hornqvist is entering that territory sooner than later. No upside left, only downsides - RoloTahmasee
The one place I expect Hornqvist like Kessel to stay relevant is the PP. But that depends on Reirdon making him a top PP option again.
But it all works out great if Matheson is any good. If that in turn ends up being a worse contract as many of us fear, then they receive no benefit by getting out of Hornqvist's deal.
In Kessel's case, they are clear of his cap hit and added a promising prospect.
This is only hindsight, but seeing how things played out, I'd have rather kept Bjugstad and just not added Sceviour if possible. 800k is an affordable gamble I'd have been willing to take that Bjugstad stays healthy enough to help more.
