moving assets now is not a good idea. You would have to find a team who had a desperate need to win or breakeven on the trade.
- wcorvette

Ghost is the only one who I think they might do this. They could subtract from the 8 NHL only on defense and add one to the Phantoms with a two-way contract saving cap space that could be used for needs before the deadline.

Just from my own experience, I just find it unfathomable that he doesn't have a long productive career. Of course this can hinge on whether he gets a bad knee injury or something like that. But I just cant see it being because of migraines.
- MBFlyerfan

Honestly though, your personal experience is a scream for askance about Patrick, quite the opposite of the perspective you suggest.

Consider the differences.

1. You have mentioned you were around 50, so you managed to get the migraines under control almost 30 years ago. Since then, medical knowledge has grown quite a bit. Patrick has had a history of migraines apparently in his youth personally (before this) as well in his family, and would have had access to much more medical resources and expertise than what you did (well before he joined the Flyers) Yet not only has he failed to control it, it is now progressed to the point it is career threatening.

2. You associate your migraines with concussions, and then say you are a successful musician (so hopefully no one has punched you after you bringing it under control for singing Bob Marley badly). Patrick is returning to a field where concussions are par for the course.

3. You associate your issues not just to concussions but cumulative trauma (7 concussions!). Patrick has never had any severe head hits here I can recall. But there are hundreds of little jolts, hits, bumps, shoves etc. that are part of Hockey. In other words, the accumulation will start to pile up soon once more.

I truly want the kid to recover and flourish. I also understand the allure of faith. But the facts are disconcerting, and for me, it does not look as though your personal history is reassuring at all.

From the sample of Frost we have in the NHL we know that:

He can produce. He produced at 2nd line level at 5v5 over his span there.
He can forecheck. He was fantastic there.
He is one of our fastest skaters.

BUT:

He struggled physically at times. Especially in 1v1 battles.
As a result he was poor defensively. He got in position well usually... but then got beat. Deserved an opportunity but didn't get to "earn" it while others handed playing time despite doing nothing.
- Striiker

Frost showed that he does have some skill but overall he showed that he was best a borderline NHL player in regular season action. I assume you're using points/60 there to say he score at a 2nd line level. Too small of a sample size. It's also a flawed stat. Saying he was fantastic on the forecheck is hyperbole. There was nothing in his game at the NHL level that was even remotely fantastic. The coaching staff made the right decision not to use an overmatched young player who hadn't played hockey in quite a period of time in the playoff bubble.

Laughton's the kind of guy you should really sell high on, even though I like him quite a bit.

He just had a year he'll almost certainly never replicate, thanks to an insanely high shooting percentage, and when he's not scoring he's nothing special as far as puck possession or defense goes. So relying on the luck to continue and giving him a brand new contract is a great way to end up in trouble.

If he were strictly going to play on the 4th line, then fine, but that's not the case and he's likely going to be paid too much for that anyways. On top of all that, we need room for other guys who have much higher potential and need playing time, especially if Patrick comes back.

It's not a good idea to get too attached to bottom six guys when you have the depth and prospects we have.
- Striiker

Completely disagree. Laughton is a guy who you should pencil into your top 9. He is versatile, can play center or wing. He can play effectively in the majority of in game situations. He is always going to be a cost controlled player is exactly the kind of player that every top team needs.

If Patrick plays, Frost probably plays some on wing. I still would rather Frost be at center even if Hayes needs to shift to wing. I could see Hayes on his right wing being a real advantage for his development. It would be nice if he had two big wingers, but I don’t believe JVR would be a good fit there.
- NC Flyers Fan

Moving Hayes to wing from center to play Frost is not going to happen. That's not at all a realistic suggestion.

We were talking about concussion proof helmets recently.

There was a story recently in Wired (not directly related to helmets, but the implications are clear) that might interest y'all. It relates to the exoskeleton of a beetle that survives without any injury after being rolled over by a car.

Beetle here:



Story here:

https://www.wired.com/sto...-being-run-over-by-a-car/

I'm Morgan Frost superfan numero uno, and I actually think he acquitted himself very well in his cups of coffee, but yeah... he had no business being thrown into the deep end. PO hockey is on a completely different level.
- Tomahawk

Agree here, too, and I am a big believer in Frost as well.

He doesn't have to put on a LOT of muscle, but he has to get tougher to knock off the puck and fare better in battles for the puck.

I don't even think he's bad defensively. I think he goes to the right places more often than not.

He can sharpen some of his risk management further and get away from plays that worked in the OHL but more often than not are turnovers against pros. He has made progress in keeping his feet moving and not going into "glide" mode to survey his options, but does revert at times.

Above all else, I want to see him get to the scoring areas with more regularity than he did (after his first three games) in the NHL. I really do think he'll get there and be a good NHL player.

Personally, I would be fine with Giroux at center again if Patrick, Frost and Laczynski don’t work well there. They have young wingers who could step up like Konecny, Lindblom and Farabee.

It really isn’t that Voracek and Giroux aren’t first line wingers (they are), it is that two primary playmakers on the same line hasn’t paid dividends in the playoffs. I really hope they spread the wealth this year and build chemistry with some of the younger forwards during the regular season.
- NC Flyers Fan

I have zero issue with Giroux at center. He’s not great in the middle anymore but still above average and better than most of the players we’ve got at center. It also helps that he’s easily beat faceoff man in the league.

Honestly though, your personal experience is a scream for askance about Patrick, quite the opposite of the perspective you suggest.

Consider the differences.

1. You have mentioned you were around 50, so you managed to get the migraines under control almost 30 years ago. Since then, medical knowledge has grown quite a bit. Patrick has had a history of migraines apparently in his youth personally (before this) as well in his family, and would have had access to much more medical resources and expertise than what you did (well before he joined the Flyers) Yet not only has he failed to control it, it is now progressed to the point it is career threatening.

2. You associate your migraines with concussions, and then say you are a successful musician (so hopefully no one has punched you after you bringing it under control for singing Bob Marley badly). Patrick is returning to a field where concussions are par for the course.

3. You associate your issues not just to concussions but cumulative trauma (7 concussions!). Patrick has never had any severe head hits here I can recall. But there are hundreds of little jolts, hits, bumps, shoves etc. that are part of Hockey. In other words, the accumulation will start to pile up soon once more.

I truly want the kid to recover and flourish. I also understand the allure of faith. But the facts are disconcerting, and for me, it does not look as though your personal history is reassuring at all.
- PT21

This was the first time in Patrick’s hockey career that it prevented him from playing, it took time to pinpoint the right method for him to get back to playing. That seems to have happened, you’re trying to paint a picture that it would be a miracle for him to play again when all signs point to things going in the right direction.

Excellent passing, effective breakouts and pinching defense can also produce speed of play.
- NC Flyers Fan

A lot of people on this board confuse speed and quickness. I agree with you quickness is more valuable in modern game than just speed.

Agree here, too, and I am a big believer in Frost as well.

He doesn't have to put on a LOT of muscle, but he has to get tougher to knock off the puck and fare better in battles for the puck.

I don't even think he's bad defensively. I think he goes to the right places more often than not.

He can sharpen some of his risk management further and get away from plays that worked in the OHL but more often than not are turnovers against pros. He has made progress in keeping his feet moving and not going into "glide" mode to survey his options, but does revert at times.

Above all else, I want to see him get to the scoring areas with more regularity than he did (after his first three games) in the NHL. I really do think he'll get there and be a good NHL player.
- bmeltzer

Bill, can you elaborate on why Frost was not given any playing time in the playoff bubble by the coaching staff? Thanks

Frost showed that he does have some skill but overall he showed that he was best a borderline NHL player in regular season action. I assume you're using points/60 there to say he score at a 2nd line level. Too small of a sample size. It's also a flawed stat. Saying he was fantastic on the forecheck is hyperbole. There was nothing in his game at the NHL level that was even remotely fantastic. The coaching staff made the right decision not to use an overmatched young player who hadn't played hockey in quite a period of time in the playoff bubble.
- MJL

10 takeaways to 6 giveaways in 20 NHL games is pretty damn good, albeit over a small sample size. For a player who is physically not very strong, he's quite good at picking opponents' pockets because his hands are so fast -- same reason he was a really good faceoff guy in the OHL (but has had to try to overhaul his faceoff technique in the NHL because it's hard to win most draws that way at the top level).

We need to temper the expectation of Patrick returning based on his play in scrimmages. I doubt those games are played at the physical level of the NHL and it really is about being able to play and stay in the lineup long term. It's encouraging but it's not a sign of being completely over it.

This was the first time in Patrick’s hockey career that it prevented him from playing, it took time to pinpoint the right method for him to get back to playing. That seems to have happened, you’re trying to paint a picture that it would be a miracle for him to play again when all signs point to things going in the right direction.
- ClaudeFather

But he had migraines before, and had a family history by his own admission. I speculate then that he would have been at least somewhat going through the very standard regimen that MBFF described.

Yet he was unable to stop them. Not only was he unable to stop them, they blew him away with the extent of the duration.

And by MBFF's accounting - the conkies caused the migraines. He is returning to the line of work where conkies are common.

No, I am not saying it is a miracle. But it does not have to be a sure thing or a miracle that he plays. Its in between - I am just moving the needle based on what MBFF said.

10 takeaways to 6 giveaways in 20 NHL games is pretty damn good, albeit over a small sample size. For a player who is physically not very strong, he's quite good at picking opponents' pockets because his hands are so fast -- same reason he was a really good faceoff guy in the OHL (but has had to try to overhaul his faceoff technique in the NHL because it's hard to win most draws that way at the top level).
- bmeltzer

There is no doubt about the skill level. It's just a question of maturing and adjusting to the pro game. Many forget that last year was his first pro season. No need to rush the player.

Moving Hayes to wing from center to play Frost is not going to happen. That's not at all a realistic suggestion.
- MJL

I haven’t really followed Hayes whole career and I haven’t fact-checked this, but it is my understanding that he has played more wing then center at the NHL level.

But he had migraines before, and had a family history by his own admission. I speculate then that he would have been at least somewhat going through the very standard regimen that MBFF described.

Yet he was unable to stop them. Not only was he unable to stop them, they blew him away with the extent of the duration.

And by MBFF's accounting - the conkies caused the migraines. He is returning to the line of work where conkies are common.

No, I am not saying it is a miracle. But it does not have to be a sure thing or a miracle that he plays. Its in between - I am just moving the needle based on what MBFF said.
- PT21

He had migraines before but they never stopped him from playing. Time will tell, hopefully the kid hits the ice whenever this season starts and never looks back.

I haven’t really followed Hayes whole career and I haven’t fact-checked this, but it is my understanding that he has played more wing then center at the NHL level.
- NC Flyers Fan

Hayes regular season and playoffs cemented him at 2C until further notice.

But there are hundreds of little jolts, hits, bumps, shoves etc. that are part of Hockey. In other words, the accumulation will start to pile up soon once more.
- PT21

Pronger suspects that he had 100+ concussions over the course of his career.

Probably most players have experienced dozens of head injuries and only the worst ones are actually diagnosed and publicly reported.

He had migraines before but they never stopped him from playing.
- ClaudeFather

Sigh.

I haven’t really followed Hayes whole career and I haven’t fact-checked this, but it is my understanding that he has played more wing then center at the NHL level.
- NC Flyers Fan

I know I am in the minority here but I feel like Frost is much better suited to the wing at the NHL level.

Agree here, too, and I am a big believer in Frost as well.

He doesn't have to put on a LOT of muscle, but he has to get tougher to knock off the puck and fare better in battles for the puck.

I don't even think he's bad defensively. I think he goes to the right places more often than not.

He can sharpen some of his risk management further and get away from plays that worked in the OHL but more often than not are turnovers against pros. He has made progress in keeping his feet moving and not going into "glide" mode to survey his options, but does revert at times.

Above all else, I want to see him get to the scoring areas with more regularity than he did (after his first three games) in the NHL. I really do think he'll get there and be a good NHL player.
- bmeltzer

I really liked how competitive he was on both sides of the puck.

A few tweaks and adjustments and he'll be ready for show time.

Pronger suspects that he had 100+ concussions over the course of his career.

Probably most players have experienced dozens of head injuries and only the worst ones are actually diagnosed and publicly reported.
- Tomahawk

I believe some people are more susceptible than others to how it affects them.

Ok, I don't want to get into this morbid argument about the kid's future. I really hope he plays for a long time.

I just read the MBFF personal story and it seemed to strongly suggest the exact opposite of what he was suggesting and so I piped in.

Bill, can you elaborate on why Frost was not given any playing time in the playoff bubble by the coaching staff? Thanks
- MJL

1) During Phase 3 training camp, the performance feedback on Morgan was that he performed well enough to be a clear choice to go to the Bubble as a Black Ace but not enough in the Voorhees phase to seriously push to get into the top 12; in the scrimmages, he was still getting pushed off pucks, losing more battles than he won, not making much of an impact on PP drills including when he filled in for Couturier on PP1 due to Couturier's absence while his wife was expecting, etc. As a young skill player battling uphill, he HAD to excel and he didn't really do that, although he was far from awful, either. Actually, I would say you could see him holding his own in 2 of the scrimmages, and not looking like the kid that AV fed to Couturier to dominate back on that Sept. camp day where AV and Lappy deliberately matched Frost and Ratcliffe head to head with Couturier and Giroux to show them how high the bar gets set at the NHL level to compete against top players. Eleven months later, Frost didn't look like a deer in headlights anymore; so that was good progress.

2) After awhile, it got to the point where he was five-plus months removed from his last game, and a month-plus from his last scrimmage, so it would not have been putting him in position to succeed to get thrown into playoff competition under those circumstances. However, his name apparently did at least come up to potentially get into the lineup and they were happy with how hard he was working on the ice and in the gym.

I really liked how competitive he was on both sides of the puck.

A few tweaks and adjustments and he'll be ready for show time.
- Tomahawk

I agree. I don't think he's far away at all. I will blog about it or do a feature on the Flyers' site ahead of camp.