It's still the latter... mostly.
- Bendecko

You are truly a sick individual

Think about it... all undocumented workers pay sales tax, most pay income tax and pay into social security, and some pay property taxes... while not being qualified to receive most direct benefits. Only major exception being K-12 public education.

So it's likely they're doing more to support you and yours than you are doing to support them.


- Tomahawk

These mother(frank)ers acting like they wanna pick their own blueberries. FOHWTS

You are truly a sick individual
- PhillySportsGuy

Think about it... all undocumented workers pay sales tax, most pay income tax and pay into social security, and some pay property taxes... while not being qualified to receive most direct benefits. Only major exception being K-12 public education.

So it's likely they're doing more to support you and yours than you are doing to support them.


- Tomahawk

These mother(frank)ers acting like they wanna pick their own blueberries. FOHWTS
- PhillySportsGuy

He probably never heard of the Braceros.

4. Contrary to popular belief by guys like MJL, it is virtually impossible to get social benefits from the state for people in this class, because there are things like getting a social security # that are necessary. Is there fraud - sure, but it is not significant.


- PT21

Let's look at this logically and explore the drain on the American taxpayer that illegal immigration has.


https://www.thecentersqua...e9-93e6-0ff213e44ae5.html


“Illegal aliens are net consumers of taxpayer-funded services and the limited taxes paid by some segments of the illegal alien population are, in no way, significant enough to offset the growing financial burdens [they] impose on U.S. taxpayers,” the report states.

https://www.fairus.org/is...n-united-states-taxpayers


https://thehill.com/opini...ts-of-illegal-immigration

A full half of noncitizens receive Medicaid, compared to 23 percent of native born citizens, while almost half of noncitizens are on food stamps. In this article you'll also find information on the increased costs of education and from the increased crime rate associated with illegal immigration. Of all federal prisoners, 26 percent are noncitizens, two-thirds of whom are in the United States illegally. Considering it costs the federal government $32,000 annually for each prisoner, the approximately 25,000 noncitizens in our prison system amounts to nearly $1 billion in expenses annually, not to mention the expenses of state correctional facilities and immigration enforcement. Also the increased costs of protecting and patrolling the border due to increased immigration.

https://cis.org/Report/63...s-Access-Welfare-Programs

Including in this is the finding that in 2014, 63 percent of households headed by a non-citizen reported that they used at least one welfare program, compared to 35 percent of native-headed households. To be fair, this is just not about illegal immigrants but all immigrants.


https://www.foxnews.com/u...taxpayers-billions-a-year

While federal benefits are supposed to be off limits, in practice many are not. More than 25,000 undocumented workers receive subsidized housing, according to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Children receive free education and most qualify for English lessons and free school breakfast and lunch.

Illegal immigrants do not qualify for Obamacare but under federal law, hospitals and clinics are required to provide urgent medical care without regard to legal status. Pregnant women are entitled to prenatal and postpartum care under the Women, Infants and Children program. Infant delivery costs are paid for by Medicaid. A study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found a federal-state immigrant insurance program cost $2 billion a year in emergency treatment, not including the $1.24 billion in infant delivery expenses.


Recognizing that many illegal workers fill jobs communities need, 26 states offer them *state-funded* benefits. New York state offers up to $300 a month in cash assistance. Eleven states offer free or subsidized medical and hospital care. California offers food stamps, legal services and benefits for those over 65 or disabled. Gov. Gavin Newsom recently asked for an extra $50 million from lawmakers to serve the state's illegal immigrant population.

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to food stamps, but families with U.S.-born children are. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, 31% of such families use the SNAP program and more than 50% of Central American families in the U.S. use at least one welfare program.


I could go on and on and on and you're likely to reply not directly to me but indirectly because your a coward. Probably will reply to another poster how I'm easily confused and can't follow logic. What is really pointed out here is that comment that it is not significant is woefully ignorant. Again, you claim to be a scholar and academic. Yet over and over you show your ignorance.

Think about it... all undocumented workers pay sales tax, most pay income tax and pay into social security, and some pay property taxes... while not being qualified to receive most direct benefits. Only major exception being K-12 public education.

So it's likely they're doing more to support you and yours than you are doing to support them.


- Tomahawk

Instead of thinking about it, you should get the facts. You're wrong. Badly wrong. Illegal immigration costs the US taxpayers over 100 billion a year.

Instead of thinking about it, you should get the facts. You're wrong. Badly wrong. Illegal immigration costs the US taxpayers over 100 billion a year.
- MJL

Sorry, those kinds of numbers have been debunked by the IRS and CBO.

Those "facts" you're citing are from "reports" published by well-known anti-immigrant organizations. Totally biased. Amounts to nothing more than political red meat.

These mother(frank)ers acting like they wanna pick their own blueberries. FOHWTS
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm sure good ol' Karen from the Walmart parking lot is just waiting for the opportunity to get her hands dirty.

Sorry, those kinds of numbers have been debunked by the IRS and CBO.

Those "facts" you're citing are from "reports" published by well-known anti-immigrant organizations. Totally biased. Amounts to nothing more than political red meat.
- Tomahawk

They haven't been debunked at all. The data and numbers are factual. You've fallen victim to left wing propaganda who wants to form a permanent voter class to seize and keep power. Your comments are naïve.

This is from the Government Accountability Office. Whom by congressional request examined the cost of providing benefits and services to illegal immigrants.

https://www.gao.gov/products/HEHS-95-133

GAO found that: (1) illegal aliens in the United States generate more in costs than revenues to federal, state, and local governments combined; (2) estimates of the national net cost of illegal aliens vary greatly, ranging from $2 billion to $19 billion;

It's weird that you cherry pick one sentence from a report and ignore the rest where it says it's almost impossible to gauge because they're just not sure lol.

Also weird that you haven't considered that this "permanent voting class" is actually socially conservative and broke for your boys in record numbers this cycle.

Also, please refrain from immediately accusing others of being "indoctrinated" if you yourself are going to take on a hyper partisan tone. I have never accused you of being brainwashed or insincere. Please do me the courtesy as well.

It's still the latter... mostly.
- Bendecko

Ha ha.

I am awed by the depth of pop culture you have at the command of your fingertips, sir.

It's weird that you cherry pick one sentence from a report and ignore the rest where it says it's almost impossible to gauge because they're just not sure lol.
- Tomahawk

More to the point, this report is not what you guys are arguing about (also, its from 1995). The GAO report addresses the benefits and costs for the government, not the entire economy. It measures benefits misapplied to the undocumented worker, and tax revenue forgone. It does not measure the primary benefit: the effect of the undocumented worker on GDP, which is what you guys are talking about.

Also, the Latino voted in larger % for Republicans than before, especially in Miami-Dade, and along the Rio Grande. But the vast majority still voted D. But since you are talking about undocumented, voting issues do not apply.

Finally, to MJL, any use of intellectual rigor/quality is elitism and evidence of indoctrination.

Sorry, those kinds of numbers have been debunked by the IRS and CBO.

Those "facts" you're citing are from "reports" published by well-known anti-immigrant organizations. Totally biased. Amounts to nothing more than political red meat.
- Tomahawk

Yes about the very poor quality of those reports and the biased sources.

Most high quality studies suggest benefit to GDP, and some high quality studies do show loss.

Wikipedia provides a decent overview.

The Atlantic had a nice general interest article about it:

https://www.theatlantic.c...igrants-and-taxes/499604/

It's weird that you cherry pick one sentence from a report and ignore the rest where it says it's almost impossible to gauge because they're just not sure lol.

Also weird that you haven't considered that this "permanent voting class" is actually socially conservative and broke for your boys in record numbers this cycle.

Also, please refrain from immediately accusing others of being "indoctrinated" if you yourself are going to take on a hyper partisan tone. I have never accused you of being brainwashed or insincere. Please do me the courtesy as well.
- Tomahawk

What they said was they it was difficult to gauge the exact amount yet it was in the billions. Nothing was cherry picked. It was the main bullet point of the GAO report.

If the permanent voting class that the Democrats want to build with was socially conservative, they wouldn't want them as voters. You're badly disconnected from reality.

There is nothing hyper partisan in factually stating that illegal immigration costs American taxpayers, (Notice I haven't said Republican of conservative taxpayers) billions each year.

I have never labeled you as indoctrinated.

What they said was they it was difficult to gauge the exact amount yet it was in the billions. Nothing was cherry picked. It was the main bullet point of the GAO report.
- MJL

Yes, so we're talking about ball park estimates with a huge variance depending on what you count as a received benefit or not.

There's no question that undocumented workers are net consumers of benefits. But keep in mind that the lower three quintiles of legal residents (basically anybody making less than $200k+ per year) are net consumers of benefits as well. And there is no doubt that undocumented workers are entitled to a far fewer benefits than legal residents, so they are getting a lot less for their tax dollars than the rest of us are.

If the permanent voting class that the Democrats want to build with was socially conservative, they wouldn't want them as voters. You're badly disconnected from reality.
- MJL

Latinos tend to be deeply religious and pro-life. Check out the recent exit polls from Texas, Florida and Nevada. Trump got a huge percentage of the rural latino vote and certain other segments.

If the GOP would cool down some of their rhetoric, they could easily co-opt even more non-college Latinos into their coalition, because the Dems have done such a poor job of making their case in those communities.

There is nothing hyper partisan in factually stating that illegal immigration costs American taxpayers, (Notice I haven't said Republican of conservative taxpayers) billions each year.

I have never labeled you as indoctrinated.
- MJL

Common, the first thing you said I was a victim of "left wing propaganda".

Anyway, I kinda bent my own rules about getting into the political quagmire here. Glad this is in a the three day old thread instead of in the current one... well not like the current one is doing any better.



Lets once again agree to disagree and move on. Thanks.

There's no question that undocumented workers are net consumers of benefits. But keep in mind that the lower three quintiles of legal residents (basically anybody making less than $200k+ per year) are net consumers of benefits as well.
- Tomahawk

Dude?

Its not clear at all in the case of the undocumented and certainly untrue regarding many subsets of the <$200k figure you mentioned.

The undocumented worker shies away from almost all official assistance, fearing being outed as an illegal. WIC is temporary. They often avoid all medical assistance unless they are forced.

Yet they pay FICA at source etc. Benefits they will never realize since many of them, contrary to what popular belief is, go back to their countries, and others may never become legalized to claim them. They also often supply fake Socials, which means even more taxes are withheld at source in the form of state/federal withholdings. Those are filed by employer, worker vanishes, and IRS informs employer that records supply do not match existing SS.

Your less than 200k category includes 99% of young people. These people pay taxes to support the elderly, the way SS payments work. These are net givers (not takers).

Where did you suddenly get these figures and this idea from?

Yes, so we're talking about ball park estimates with a huge variance depending on what you count as a received benefit or not.

There's no question that undocumented workers are net consumers of benefits. But keep in mind that the lower three quintiles of legal residents (basically anybody making less than $200k+ per year) are net consumers of benefits as well. And there is no doubt that undocumented workers are entitled to a far fewer benefits than legal residents, so they are getting a lot less for their tax dollars than the rest of us are.


- Tomahawk

You're making the wrong argument here. Why should the American taxpayers be paying anything for people who are in the country illegally. You are also losing sight of the argument that illegal immigration costs the US taxpayer billions of dollars a year! The benefits are for Americans! Not non Americans! Honestly, what don't you get?

Latinos tend to be deeply religious and pro-life. Check out the recent exit polls from Texas, Florida and Nevada. Trump got a huge percentage of the rural latino vote and certain other segments.


- Tomahawk

Dude, you need to turn your brain on. Are these voter Americans, or illegal immigrants? We're talking about the cost of illegal immigration. LOL. The hope of the far progressive left is to bring in a class of people, give them plenty of free stuff so they'll vote for them forever and they can gain and keep power. That is why the left is in favor of illegal immigration.

If the GOP would cool down some of their rhetoric, they could easily co-opt even more non-college Latinos into their coalition, because the Dems have done such a poor job of making their case in those communities.


- Tomahawk

The minority Republican vote grew in leaps and bounds under Trump. I don't know what rhetoric you're referring to.

Common, the first thing you said I was a victim of "left wing propaganda".

Anyway, I kinda bent my own rules about getting into the political quagmire here. Glad this is in a the three day old thread instead of in the current one... well not like the current one is doing any better.


- Tomahawk

Never stated you were indoctrinated. Yes, if you don't believe or understand what illegal immigration costs to the US taxpayer, then yes, you are falling victim to propaganda. It's a well established fact that illegal immigration costs the US taxpayer billions. To argue any different is being ignorant.