I mean where does it end? Will we start calling and separating goals into categories like tip in, bounce off my ass, or straight shot? And then say said player is not actually that good because 20 of his 30 goals have these lesser values. I mean common already. People need to stop.
- Ross77

It’s the equal of valuing the barometric pressure in Hawaii over the temperature.

This is a load of crap and actually contradicts any value you put on being able to exit the defensive zone.
I can’t believe this is a thing and further proves how little some people actually watch or understand the game. I’m not singling you out but anyone pushing this logic.
- Ross77

You’re just wrong. Sorry.

https://www.google.com/am...sists-1.1134501%3Ftsn-amp

TSN put this out in 2018. Mainstream hockey media is usually years behind the times.

You’re just wrong. Sorry.

https://www.google.com/am...sists-1.1134501%3Ftsn-amp

TSN put this out in 2018. Mainstream hockey media is usually years behind the times.
- Rexypoo

Wrong? Lol. These are all opinions, you struggle to grasp that. The NHL still tracks plus minus, does that mean you are wrong on your views there because of this? No, it’s just opinions.

Travis Yost wrote this article, he is so far all in on Anylitics it’s not even funny!!! He is no longer capable of seeing anything else.
Using him as a Reference only proves my point further.
Thank you

You’re just wrong. Sorry.

https://www.google.com/am...sists-1.1134501%3Ftsn-amp

TSN put this out in 2018. Mainstream hockey media is usually years behind the times.
- Rexypoo

Shot data you used to make your argument in years past has now been proven inaccurate they way the NHL was tracking it?

The holes in Fenwick, Corsi and XG along with many other micro stats are all well documented now.

Is it that mainstream media is behind or that some anylitics are jumping to conclusions to quickly and being accepted by some as the latest and greatest just because they are new and making assumptions on data that does not yet have a track record of being proven correct ?

And then when said data is proven to have as many gaps and errors as say, plus minus why does no one ever come out admit they jumped the gun and were wrong to?

I actually like anylitics, but I see it for what it is!!! A work in process and not the be all end all that you do.

Shot data you used to make your argument in years past has now been proven inaccurate they way the NHL was tracking it?

The holes in Fenwick, Corsi and XG along with many other micro stats are all well documented now.

Is it that mainstream media is behind or that some anylitics are jumping to conclusions to quickly and being accepted by some as the latest and greatest just because they are new and making assumptions on data that does not yet have a track record of being proven correct ?

And then when said data is proven to have as many gaps and errors as say, plus minus why does no one ever come out admit they jumped the gun and were wrong to?

I actually like anylitics, but I see it for what it is!!! A work in process and not the be all end all that you do.
- Ross77

When used in conjunction with one another, you’ll find you get a pretty clear picture of a player.

Nobody is looking at Fenwick numbers like “IVE GOT IT!”

I mean where does it end? Will we start calling and separating goals into categories like tip in, bounce off my ass, or straight shot? And then say said player is not actually that good because 20 of his 30 goals have these lesser values. I mean common already. People need to stop.
- Ross77

Totally agree! Where does it stop?

Totally agree! Where does it stop?
- grahamzky

The NHL is a copycat league. One team takes a step in a new direction, and everyone else follows suit. Most teams are moving more and more in the “advanced stats” direction. LA won as the Corsi Kings, and whether or not that was on purpose, it happens. Everyone knows it. Pittsburgh won by playing an all offence, speed and possession based style. Tampa won by being even more stacked and aggressive, and by being a god tier play driving team.

There is no “stop”. There is only the next step, or being left behind. The NHL may be behind the curve, but they’re certainly following it.

The NHL is a copycat league. One team takes a step in a new direction, and everyone else follows suit. Most teams are moving more and more in the “advanced stats” direction. LA won as the Corsi Kings, and whether or not that was on purpose, it happens. Everyone knows it. Pittsburgh won by playing an all offence, speed and possession based style. Tampa won by being even more stacked and aggressive, and by being a god tier play driving team.

There is no “stop”. There is only the next step, or being left behind. The NHL may be behind the curve, but they’re certainly following it.
- Rexypoo

Why do you leave out the teams that have recently won by playing a physical, pounding style with grit and toughness as main contributors? Is it because it doesn’t suite your narrative?

Why do you leave out the teams that have recently won by playing a physical, pounding style with grit and toughness as main contributors? Is it because it doesn’t suite your narrative?
- Ross77

I tend to leave imagined talking points out, yeah. The didn’t win because they did many hit. The won because they were incredibly skilled.

Physicality on its own makes a player a liability, not an asset.
You cannot say the same of skill.

I tend to leave imagined talking points out, yeah. The didn’t win because they did many hit. The won because they were incredibly skilled.

Physicality on its own makes a player a liability, not an asset.
You cannot say the same of skill.
- Rexypoo

I never said physical alone. Skill alone won’t win anything either, and yes I can say that. It never has.
Tampa had to go out and add players like Schenn, Bogo, Maroon and a couple others to bring an element they were missing in previous years.
The forward thinking Dubas who you are a huge fan of just signed the absolute worst forward in the NHL last season in Simmonds for this very same
Reason.
It’s ok, you see one side of hockey, when you see all the other pieces you’ll probably enjoy it more and have something to look forward to.

Side topic. If I continue to see the same amount of embellishments and diving from some of the world juniors ( especially the US vrs Fin game ) I’m going to lose it!!! This is hands down the most troublesome embarrassing trend in hockey.

I never said physical alone. Skill alone won’t win anything either, and yes I can say that. It never has.
Tampa had to go out and add players like Schenn, Bogo, Maroon and a couple others to bring an element they were missing in previous years.
The forward thinking Dubas who you are a huge fan of just signed the absolute worst forward in the NHL last season in Simmonds for this very same
Reason.
It’s ok, you see one side of hockey, when you see all the other pieces you’ll probably enjoy it more and have something to look forward to.

Side topic. If I continue to see the same amount of embellishments and diving from some of the world juniors ( especially the US vrs Fin game ) I’m going to lose it!!! This is hands down the most troublesome embarrassing trend in hockey.
- Ross77

Maroon is a very high end 2nd line forward, and Schenn and Bogo were passengers to a hilarious degree.
Tampa’s toughest, most physical line was running a 5’8” centre.

Dubas didn’t sign Simmonds and Bogo to have them play. It was very blatantly a gimme to all the “WE NEED MORE GRIT” facebook fans that won’t look up who’s playing anyway

I tend to leave imagined talking points out, yeah. The didn’t win because they did many hit. The won because they were incredibly skilled.

Physicality on its own makes a player a liability, not an asset.
You cannot say the same of skill.
- Rexypoo

Physicality IS a skill.

Physicality IS a skill.
- 2.0

Leadership, passion, competition level, character, aggression/physicality, intelligence, and hockey sense are all major "skills " that scouts look for in a player. Actual hockey skills are only the starting part of the equation before scouts look much deeper into drafting or trading for a player. They also look at the negative intangibles which can be anything from selfishness to body language, to lack of consistency from shift to shift.

Add-ons such as PP and PK skills are also very important as are face-off skills for centers.

A lot of these "skills " cannot or will ever be found in any analytics. A guy like the example used , Patrick Maroon , actually carries a lot of these "skills" which is why any team in the league would love to have him.


Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays everyone !

Leadership, passion, competition level, character, aggression/physicality, intelligence, and hockey sense are all major "skills " that scouts look for in a player. Actual hockey skills are only the starting part of the equation before scouts look much deeper into drafting or trading for a player. They also look at the negative intangibles which can be anything from selfishness to body language, to lack of consistency from shift to shift.

Add-ons such as PP and PK skills are also very important as are face-off skills for centers.

A lot of these "skills " cannot or will ever be found in any analytics. A guy like the example used , Patrick Maroon , actually carries a lot of these "skills" which is why any team in the league would love to have him.


Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays everyone !
- jetsnation

All of those skills and intangibles you listed are what we call “inputs”. All of them, in the varying degrees the impact the game, would appear in the results. The “outputs”.
If a guy is playing “soft”, and his heart isn’t in it, his results would suffer.

Anywho, I mean this genuinely when I say it, I hope you have a great Christmas/Holidays.
Cheers everyone!

Maroon is a very high end 2nd line forward, and Schenn and Bogo were passengers to a hilarious degree.
Tampa’s toughest, most physical line was running a 5’8” centre.

Dubas didn’t sign Simmonds and Bogo to have them play. It was very blatantly a gimme to all the “WE NEED MORE GRIT” facebook fans that won’t look up who’s playing anyway
- Rexypoo

Pat Maroon, the last time I saw him in the SC playoffs, is not a high-end 2nd line forward. He is a gritty player, the type of player every team team needs in the playoffs, gritty. The refs swallow their whistles in the playoffs, let's not forget that.

Zack Bogosian played limited minutes, but played very well for the Bolts in the playoffs. He will help the Leafs thus year if head is clear. Luke Schenn, was, well, Luke Schennn.

Didn't watch the Canada game last night. See Perfetti got three assists, did he standout in the blowout?

Pat Maroon, the last time I saw him in the SC playoffs, is not a high-end 2nd line forward. He is a gritty player, the type of player every team team needs in the playoffs, gritty. The refs swallow their whistles in the playoffs, let's not forget that.

Zack Bogosian played limited minutes, but played very well for the Bolts in the playoffs. He will help the Leafs thus year if head is clear. Luke Schenn, was, well, Luke Schennn.

Didn't watch the Canada game last night. See Perfetti got three assists, did he standout in the blowout?
- grahamzky

I was busy during the Covid Cup Final so I recorded most of the games and have been watching them over my Christmas break and Maroon looks incredibly slow. He's a grindy 3rd or 4th liner depending on the talent level of the team he's on, was a 4th line player for Tampa, he is effective at what he does and can move up if needed but calling him a very high end 2nd line player is laughable, if that's what the analytics say about Maroon well that says a lot about the value of hockey analytics.

I wouldn't of minded Schenn on the Jets defense last year, he's tough, could of used some of that.

I've watched both of Canada's games and to me Perfetti was pretty invisible in both, his skating needs a lot of work, don't see him being a Jet this season and wouldn't be surprised if he isn't ready next season either, think he's going to take longer to arrive then was originally thought.

I was busy during the Covid Cup Final so I recorded most of the games and have been watching them over my Christmas break and Maroon looks incredibly slow. He's a grindy 3rd or 4th liner depending on the talent level of the team he's on, was a 4th line player for Tampa, he is effective at what he does and can move up if needed but calling him a very high end 2nd line player is laughable, if that's what the analytics say about Maroon well that says a lot about the value of analytics.

I wouldn't of minded Schenn on the Jets defense last year, he's tough, could of used some of that.

I've watched both of Canada's games and to me Perfetti was pretty invisible in both, his skating needs a lot of work, don't see him being a Jet this season and wouldn't be surprised if he isn't ready next season either, think he's going to take longer to arrive then was originally thought.
- JetFuel

Perfetti? That's disappoimting!

Perfetti? That's disappoimting!
- grahamzky

I love watching the world juniors but fans put way too much stock on a players performance here.
Time and time again players who have performed well flop in the NHL and players who underperformed have gone on to have great careers. I’d list examples of both but honestly there are far too many.

I love watching the world juniors but fans put way too much stock on a players performance here.
Time and time again players who have performed well flop in the NHL and players who underperformed have gone on to have great careers. I’d list examples of both but honestly there are far too many.
- Ross77

I agree with Ross. Lines can get hot and cold from game to game. I also wouldn't rank his linemates as necessarily deserving of top-line status. Perfetti had some stellar grade-A chances that for whatever reason didn't pan out. He was far from " invisible".

When Chevy had the incredible luck to draft Perfetti at #10 I don't think I have ever been more surprised and happier about a Jets draft pick ( BTW...Laine was already a given and expected at #2). I'll go out on a limb here and say that in a few years other teams will be shaking their heads at that missed opportunity on Perfetti. Although nothing is certain I strongly believe he will be on the Jet's roster in 2022. He is a highly intelligent hockey player and his defensive skills will always get him on at least the third or 4th line. Skating will improve.

I love watching the world juniors but fans put way too much stock on a players performance here.
Time and time again players who have performed well flop in the NHL and players who underperformed have gone on to have great careers. I’d list examples of both but honestly there are far too many.
- Ross77

I agree completely, Perfetti just looks really awkward and weak on his skates, think his development curve is gonna be a little longer is all and I'm just trying to keep my expectations realistic for this kid who has a lot of hype around him, what his NHL career will be at this point is simply unknown.

I agree completely, Perfetti just looks really awkward and weak on his skates, think his development curve is gonna be a little longer is all and I'm just trying to keep my expectations realistic for this kid who has a lot of hype around him, what his NHL career will be at this point is simply unknown.
- JetFuel

Let's not forget that Schiefele couldn't stay on his feet in his first 2 NHL seasons.

Let's not forget that Schiefele couldn't stay on his feet in his first 2 NHL seasons.
- bennythehat

Very true,
And also was sent back to juniors two years after being drafted. Having any expectations of Perfetti this season is unrealistic

Pat Maroon, the last time I saw him in the SC playoffs, is not a high-end 2nd line forward. He is a gritty player, the type of player every team team needs in the playoffs, gritty. The refs swallow their whistles in the playoffs, let's not forget that.

Zack Bogosian played limited minutes, but played very well for the Bolts in the playoffs. He will help the Leafs thus year if head is clear. Luke Schenn, was, well, Luke Schennn.

Didn't watch the Canada game last night. See Perfetti got three assists, did he standout in the blowout?
- grahamzky

The results paint Maroon as a high end top 6 forward. He drives play, and defends very well.

I’ve been impressed with all of Perfetti, Heinola, and Nikkanen.

Perfetti’s skating “issues” have been severely overstated. He’s not slow, he’s steady on his feet, and he can move around just fine. He just looks really stiff, so people think it’s a problem.
Kinda like how Dano’s skating is viewed as an issue, even though it’s really not. Just looks funny.
Perfetti is easily the smartest player on that Canada roster, and he’s very subtle about keeping things moving the right direction.

Heinola is calm. He is the word “calm” in its definition. He’s ready, and might be our best defenceman right now. Whether or not he makes the team is up to Maurice, but I’m very happy with him. Finland’s blueline has been a sh*tshow in the warmups, so he’s been hanging back a bit to babysit. Let’s see how this goes.

Nikkanen looks like our future 3C. He hasn’t *done* a whole lot himself, but he creates space, doesn’t make a lot of mistakes, and keeps things moving the right way.

I agree completely, Perfetti just looks really awkward and weak on his skates, think his development curve is gonna be a little longer is all and I'm just trying to keep my expectations realistic for this kid who has a lot of hype around him, what his NHL career will be at this point is simply unknown.
- JetFuel

I don’t think that Perfetti is as much of a steal as Kyle Connor. If it were not for poor drafting by the Bruins and some luck, Connor, a player that was ranked in the top 10 in 2015 fell to #17.