That's the thing, everyone wants every player to be rated 99 on all stats like in a video game and that just isn't the case.

Players can grow but eventually they are what they are.

Same people think Mickey has some scoring touch to make him a top power forward and I think it's absurd to expect such guys to become those.

Hyman is great at what he does but he also has hands of stone and has a difficult time finishing.
- Aaron_85

I love Hyman. He's incredible at what he does, but there's maybe only a handful of players in the league who are worse with the puck on their stick than him.

thanks you for summarizing the article that most people do not have access to.

does that person work for the Toronto Sun?
- dmnted

Yeaaah, really is a bummer that the Athletic is subscription based. There are always phenomenal reads on there... It's my first go to when bored at work, then here. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Unfortunately (probably expectedly), the mindset that Keefe basically admitted to the media that he hates Willie (or at the least was calling him out for being poop) is being pushed by a certain Nylander obsessed poster here.

No one in that room knows willie better than Keefe, he coached him before he was in the NHL. It's insanely stupid to imply that Keefe is hating him to the media and not just saying what everyone already knows, which is that he's good at hockey and there's room to grow in certain facets of his game.

Yeaaah, really is a bummer that the Athletic is subscription based. There are always phenomenal reads on there... It's my first go to when bored at work, then here. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Unfortunately (probably expectedly), the mindset that Keefe basically admitted to the media that he hates Willie (or at the least was calling him out for being poop) is being pushed by a certain Nylander obsessed poster here.

No one in that room knows willie better than Keefe, he coached him before he was in the NHL. It's insanely stupid to imply that Keefe is hating him to the media and not just saying what everyone already knows, which is that he's good at hockey and there's room to grow in certain facets of his game.
- joel878

Pretty sure Keefe said something similar to Nylander in his rookie season in the A, not sure if it was mentioned in the article.

Good coaches know how to motivate guys. I read Engvall is a player that constantly needs new motivations to be effective.

Its all tactics and the media and AA reads too much into it.

Jake Muzzin got a 1st and two B prospects. Muzzin and Forsberg are on the same level...so you pay a little more for salary retention which is basically a necessity for any good team looking to add him given the flat cap.

Leafs have a middle of the pack prospect pool and their 1st round pick this year and the next.
- Santo_44

If they were to go for it, and offer up Abramov, Sandin + 1st for Forsberg, the plus is that Forsberg is a solid player entering the prime years of his career and he plays the left side. So he's an obviously good target. The downside is that next year they are again bumping uglies with the cap, will have lost a top-4 defenseman, and will have about $2m to fill that hole. They are also into a revolving door of replacement bottom-6 guys who have to plug in and learn the system, rather than bottom-6 ELC guys who are motivated to progress.

If they replace Sandin with Robertson in the above equation, the same problems arise on the front-end. Someone is going to have to go. We wouldn't resign Hyman. We likely couldn't resign Freddie, and would be going with a lesser starting goalie (which may not be THAT bad, depending on the level of trade off).

I'm wary of cap stretched teams trading away their good ELCs, because that's how you maximize your top tier talent.

At the end of the day, if they traded for Forsberg or a similar talent, I'm not going to be all weepy, but I would be concerned that they're turning a blind eye to the future.

If they were to go for it, and offer up Abramov, Sandin + 1st for Forsberg, the plus is that Forsberg is a solid player entering the prime years of his career and he plays the left side. So he's an obviously good target. The downside is that next year they are again bumping uglies with the cap, will have lost a top-4 defenseman, and will have about $2m to fill that hole. They are also into a revolving door of replacement bottom-6 guys who have to plug in and learn the system, rather than bottom-6 ELC guys who are motivated to progress.

If they replace Sandin with Robertson in the above equation, the same problems arise on the front-end. Someone is going to have to go. We wouldn't resign Hyman. We likely couldn't resign Freddie, and would be going with a lesser starting goalie (which may not be THAT bad, depending on the level of trade off).

I'm wary of cap stretched teams trading away their good ELCs, because that's how you maximize your top tier talent.

At the end of the day, if they traded for Forsberg or a similar talent, I'm not going to be all weepy, but I would be concerned that they're turning a blind eye to the future.
- Monkeypunk

Abramov has literally zero value right now

Wait NM I confused him for the other russian guy who just joined our team

The names all sound the same



abramov
barabanov
crabomov
daridanov

If they were to go for it, and offer up Abramov, Sandin + 1st for Forsberg, the plus is that Forsberg is a solid player entering the prime years of his career and he plays the left side. So he's an obviously good target. The downside is that next year they are again bumping uglies with the cap, will have lost a top-4 defenseman, and will have about $2m to fill that hole. They are also into a revolving door of replacement bottom-6 guys who have to plug in and learn the system, rather than bottom-6 ELC guys who are motivated to progress.

If they replace Sandin with Robertson in the above equation, the same problems arise on the front-end. Someone is going to have to go. We wouldn't resign Hyman. We likely couldn't resign Freddie, and would be going with a lesser starting goalie (which may not be THAT bad, depending on the level of trade off).

I'm wary of cap stretched teams trading away their good ELCs, because that's how you maximize your top tier talent.

At the end of the day, if they traded for Forsberg or a similar talent, I'm not going to be all weepy, but I would be concerned that they're turning a blind eye to the future.
- Monkeypunk

You're right about ELC deals and moving guys on them. Look at Holl, he's 2 million a year in a top four role. Leafs are getting about 4 million of value at half price!

We need young guys to do it.

HOWEVER, with all of that said if they went for Forsberg then they can deal him in the summer for some reason OR move Nylander if they wanted to.

There's options but keeping the entire band together will be difficult and remaining competitive I think.

Abramov has literally zero value right now

Wait NM I confused him for the other russian guy who just joined our team

The names all sound the same



abramov
barabanov
crabomov
daridanov
- TheMussel

I believe Pronman had Abramov ranked as our 5th best prospect, and projected as a legit NHLer. MiB has him ranked 12th behind Barabanov. While he has, admittedly, looked better in his last two games, I still think he has less trade value than his equipment.

Wow, i couldnt imagine disliking such a key part of the team.

Hate our #1 goalie on a good contract = good

Question poor play of a winger on a bad contract = bad

got it.
- Tanooki

oh

If they were to go for it, and offer up Abramov, Sandin + 1st for Forsberg, the plus is that Forsberg is a solid player entering the prime years of his career and he plays the left side. So he's an obviously good target. The downside is that next year they are again bumping uglies with the cap, will have lost a top-4 defenseman, and will have about $2m to fill that hole. They are also into a revolving door of replacement bottom-6 guys who have to plug in and learn the system, rather than bottom-6 ELC guys who are motivated to progress.

If they replace Sandin with Robertson in the above equation, the same problems arise on the front-end. Someone is going to have to go. We wouldn't resign Hyman. We likely couldn't resign Freddie, and would be going with a lesser starting goalie (which may not be THAT bad, depending on the level of trade off).

I'm wary of cap stretched teams trading away their good ELCs, because that's how you maximize your top tier talent.

At the end of the day, if they traded for Forsberg or a similar talent, I'm not going to be all weepy, but I would be concerned that they're turning a blind eye to the future.
- Monkeypunk

I think the incredible part about getting Forsberg is that they would first get him at a retained price...3-4 M per year. You get a run with him without sacrificing much talent today.

In the Offseason you then have a 1st line player at a very good cap hit. You then have options. Do you sign a cheaper goalie? Do you trade Nylander to fill the hole of losing a D in the expansion draft? Do you let Hyman go and use that money to improve elsewhere? Do you flip Forsberg?

If they make this trade today they are giving themselves more options not less. The next 2 years look like an awesome chance to get a cup.

You're right about ELC deals and moving guys on them. Look at Holl, he's 2 million a year in a top four role. Leafs are getting about 4 million of value at half price!

We need young guys to do it.

HOWEVER, with all of that said if they went for Forsberg then they can deal him in the summer for some reason OR move Nylander if they wanted to.

There's options but keeping the entire band together will be difficult and remaining competitive I think.
- Aaron_85

This.

They aren't married to Forsberg if they trade for him. They can deal him in the offseason if they wanted.

You're right about ELC deals and moving guys on them. Look at Holl, he's 2 million a year in a top four role. Leafs are getting about 4 million of value at half price!

We need young guys to do it.

HOWEVER, with all of that said if they went for Forsberg then they can deal him in the summer for some reason OR move Nylander if they wanted to.

There's options but keeping the entire band together will be difficult and remaining competitive I think.
- Aaron_85

I agree. Realistically we probably can't keep the band together. If we bring in a talent like Forsberg - especially with some type of salary retained - then we can probably deal Nylander for the cap relief needed to deal with some of the harder decisions. We could pay for Hyman's raise and choose to keep Andersen while still pursuing a modest top-4 replacement in trading out Nylander -- because as we've seen for years (and years!) that's not cheap in UFA dollars, and we'd be running out of prospect currency. Again, the problem is that it's very short-term. After 2022 Forsberg is a 28yo UFA seeking term and $8m, while Nylander will be entering his prime at 26 and under contract at $7m for 2 more years.

It's a thin margin there no matter where we're going balance the ledger.

This.

They aren't married to Forsberg if they trade for him. They can deal him in the offseason if they wanted.
- Santo_44

If you want Forsberg, you're gonna have to put a ring on it.

I agree. Realistically we probably can't keep the band together. If we bring in a talent like Forsberg - especially with some type of salary retained - then we can probably deal Nylander for the cap relief needed to deal with some of the harder decisions. We could pay for Hyman's raise and choose to keep Andersen while still pursuing a modest top-4 replacement in trading out Nylander -- because as we've seen for years (and years!) that's not cheap in UFA dollars, and we'd be running out of prospect currency. Again, the problem is that it's very short-term. After 2022 Forsberg is a 28yo UFA seeking term and $8m, while Nylander will be entering his prime at 26 and under contract at $7m for 2 more years.

It's a thin margin there no matter where we're going balance the ledger.
- Monkeypunk

Yikes I dont think so

oh
- Aetherial

I agree. Realistically we probably can't keep the band together. If we bring in a talent like Forsberg - especially with some type of salary retained - then we can probably deal Nylander for the cap relief needed to deal with some of the harder decisions. We could pay for Hyman's raise and choose to keep Andersen while still pursuing a modest top-4 replacement in trading out Nylander -- because as we've seen for years (and years!) that's not cheap in UFA dollars, and we'd be running out of prospect currency. Again, the problem is that it's very short-term. After 2022 Forsberg is a 28yo UFA seeking term and $8m, while Nylander will be entering his prime at 26 and under contract at $7m for 2 more years.

It's a thin margin there no matter where we're going balance the ledger.
- Monkeypunk

I think if Keefe has any say, Nylander and/or Rielly could be moved

I think if Keefe has any say, Nylander and/or Rielly could be moved
- PatC80

Any player not named JT, AM or Marner can be moved.

Doubt the Leafs will make moves based off filling holes 3 years from now...but any move they make likely has eyes on the next few years while giving them options in the future whether it be cap space or players.

- 21peter

I love Hyman. He's incredible at what he does, but there's maybe only a handful of players in the league who are worse with the puck on their stick than him.
- GreatGigInTheSky

So , we should run Hyman out of town too. And replace him with Let's not go there At least Babs gifted us with Zack One of the very few for him.

So , we should run Hyman out of town too. And replace him with Let's not go there At least Babs gifted us with Zack One of the very few for him.
- Leafsmart

Joey Anderson 👍

So, the general feeling here is we should trade Willie for a top 4 D. Which will do what for us precisely? Can't see much on the D end of things we need to repair. Added Brodie, Lehtonen and Bogo in pre season.

And we're certainly not trading him for a goal scorer.

So, the general feeling here is we should trade Willie for a top 4 D. Which will do what for us precisely? Can't see much on the D end of things we need to repair. Added Brodie, Lehtonen and Bogo in pre season.

And we're certainly not trading him for a goal scorer.
- Leafsmart

I think the argument is that he needs to be traded for someone who cares more and plays grittier. A forward?

I think. Dunno. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Hey AA.


- gergeswillems

I think the argument is that he needs to be traded for someone who cares more and plays grittier. A forward?

I think. Dunno. 🤷🏻‍♂️
- joel878

Better idea. Let's keep Willie. Said a million times, we will never be a true contender until our 3rd and 4th lines are actually meaningful. Looking better this year. Lots of time before play-offs for Keefe to tinker a bit more. Spezza, Boyd, Engvall so far.

So, the general feeling here is we should trade Willie for a top 4 D. Which will do what for us precisely? Can't see much on the D end of things we need to repair. Added Brodie, Lehtonen and Bogo in pre season.

And we're certainly not trading him for a goal scorer.
- Leafsmart

i dont see many people saying trade willy for a top 4 D anymore, since the Leafs were able to add Holl and Brodie for not Nylander..

Better idea. Let's keep Willie. Said a million times, we will never be a true contender until our 3rd and 4th lines are actually meaningful. Looking better this year. Lots of time before play-offs for Keefe to tinker a bit more. Spezza, Boyd, Engvall so far.
- Leafsmart

travis boyd has been good

vesey scratched tomorrow