I think the return was Higgins, a 1st, 2nd, and a 3rd. The first would have been like 25th. Realistically, useful players the Leafs could have drafted there would have been Carlson, Jake Allen or Roman Josi. Fletcher was running that draft, so he probably would have used that pick as well when he moved up to pick Schenn and then Nashville would have picked Wilson 7th, and one of the aforementioned players 25th.

The bigger one, to me, at that time was Philly was offering Jeff Carter and a 1st for Kaberle.

Parlaying Carter and Higgins into more picks would have helped the Leafs start a rebuild earlier - except it would have all been moot because within a year of all this happening, they would have signed Brian Burke, and the rebuild would have changed into a poorly thought out and executed retool.
- Monkeypunk

I'd like to see the alternate reality where they didn't bungle everything so much that they ultimately ended up with Matthews.

They shouldn't even have to do that. Teams know the rules -- play by them! Continuous penalties should message enough to quit the shenanigans!

Growing up with a father who reffed Junior B for decades and being in the locker room with refs growing up, I can definitely attest to the massive egos refs have and, though they don't like to admit it, they can't help but try to "manage" the game -- as if they know better.
- mjones242

You're right about it all.

I do agree on aspects like discretion. If a team is up by 5 and it's 2 minutes left in the game, you can let the game go a bit.

Humans are humans. When a team makes 4 mistakes resulting in penalties the refs then look to "even it up" even though they shouldn't. They should just talk to the team that takes the penalties and tell them to stop taking them.
- Aaron_85

The thing that pisses me off is that Peel did exactly what the league wants him to do.

This wasn't a guy going rogue.

This was a guy doing his job.

I think the return was Higgins, a 1st, 2nd, and a 3rd. The first would have been like 25th. Realistically, useful players the Leafs could have drafted there would have been Carlson, Jake Allen or Roman Josi. Fletcher was running that draft, so he probably would have used that pick as well when he moved up to pick Schenn and then Nashville would have picked Wilson 7th, and one of the aforementioned players 25th.

The bigger one, to me, at that time was Philly was offering Jeff Carter and a 1st for Kaberle.

Parlaying Carter and Higgins into more picks would have helped the Leafs start a rebuild earlier - except it would have all been moot because within a year of all this happening, they would have signed Brian Burke, and the rebuild would have changed into a poorly thought out and executed retool.
- Monkeypunk

Well, we are here now so no idea where that route would have taken us.

The thing that pisses me off is that Peel did exactly what the league wants him to do.

This wasn't a guy going rogue.

This was a guy doing his job.
- Atomic Wedgie

Oh yeah, that's the worst of it. People claiming he's fired is just reading headlines because he was essentially given desk duty. He isn't reffing more games.

This has that Roy Halladay feel too it.. Where you didn't want him to go, but knew that he had too be traded.
- PatC80

Lets hope its not like that, The Jays got poop all from that trade

You're right about it all.

I do agree on aspects like discretion. If a team is up by 5 and it's 2 minutes left in the game, you can let the game go a bit.
- Aaron_85

I'm going to completely disagree here.

Up by five and the other team is taking runs?

Send them to the box. Keep sending them to the box until they figure it out.

Let the other team play keep-away, and run out the clock.

Lets hope its not like that, The Jays got poop all from that trade
- Archaic

they kinda got a little.,,kinda..once you look at the trades after

Drabek > never panned out
Michael Taylor > Brett Wallace > Anthony Gose > Devon Travis
Travis d'Arnaud > sent as part of RA dcky

Travis would have been good...if he wasnt made of glass

I'm going to completely disagree here.

Up by five and the other team is taking runs?

Send them to the box. Keep sending them to the box until they figure it out.

Let the other team play keep-away, and run out the clock.
- Atomic Wedgie

I agree with this, when a game is out of hand is probably when you really want the refs to call everything to avoid the stupidity that comes from players who are angry about losing.

I would be fine if they just called everything that is a penalty, from puck drop on opening night to the last game of the cup finals - at least then everyone should be able to have figured out what is or is not a penalty.

I also think the NHL one day may go the route of many beer leagues and tournaments and look to have a 3rd tier of penalties added. Generally in those leagues the penalties I assume that are viewed as higher risk actions with intent to injure are given something like 3 minutes vs 2 minutes.

i.e. a trip or hook is 2 minutes, high stick (intentional), cross check or slew foot is 3 minutes

The thing that pisses me off is that Peel did exactly what the league wants him to do.

This wasn't a guy going rogue.

This was a guy doing his job.
- Atomic Wedgie

I agree that it was absolutely a “gambling here at Ricks?” moment but once it got said out loud the league had to do something. They were lucky it was a ref was retiring in a couple of months so that they could get away with just a “no more games” response rather than absolute firing.

Really, his problem was mic management not game management.

I'd like to see the alternate reality where they didn't bungle everything so much that they ultimately ended up with Matthews.
- AdamFrench

There is a suffusion of gray.

In all honesty, we can go back and look at the Muskoka Five or Knob-Hill-guy-Steve nixing the Gretzky deal, or, or, or . . .but I think all paths for this team were leading to where they are now.

I mean some fans can hate Shanahan if they want, but until he was hired and given carte blanche, there had not been a cohesive plan for the organization or the future that I recall seeing. I liked the Leafs' teams from the late 70s, or the two years of Fletcher, or maybe 4-5 years of Quinn's Leafs. But there was never a consistently laid out organizational plan like we're seeing now - at least not in my lifetime.

I will concede in that statement that during Quinn's years or Fletcher's years due to the absence of the cap there was the idea that we could fix our problems with money so we didn't need to care about scouting or prospects or development.

I agree with this, when a game is out of hand is probably when you really want the refs to call everything to avoid the stupidity that comes from players who are angry about losing.

I would be fine if they just called everything that is a penalty, from puck drop on opening night to the last game of the cup finals - at least then everyone should be able to have figured out what is or is not a penalty.

I also think the NHL one day may go the route of many beer leagues and tournaments and look to have a 3rd tier of penalties added. Generally in those leagues the penalties I assume that are viewed as higher risk actions with intent to injure are given something like 3 minutes vs 2 minutes.

i.e. a trip or hook is 2 minutes, high stick (intentional), cross check or slew foot is 3 minutes
- Cush29

What I don't understand is that we came out of the lockout with the commitment to call all the hacking, slashing, holding and obstruction. It was a parade to the penalty box, fans complained, but he league stuck to their guns, and the hockey was franking glorious. It was universally accepted that the level of play was the highest it had ever been, scoring was up, and the games were exciting to watch.

Over the years, it crept back to the crap we have now.

How does the league not see that the crackdown made for a better product?

McDavid dancing through three guys to score makes the highlight reels.

Marincin holding McDavid so that he can't get to the net doesn't make it to SportsCentre.

I agree with this, when a game is out of hand is probably when you really want the refs to call everything to avoid the stupidity that comes from players who are angry about losing.

I would be fine if they just called everything that is a penalty, from puck drop on opening night to the last game of the cup finals - at least then everyone should be able to have figured out what is or is not a penalty.

I also think the NHL one day may go the route of many beer leagues and tournaments and look to have a 3rd tier of penalties added. Generally in those leagues the penalties I assume that are viewed as higher risk actions with intent to injure are given something like 3 minutes vs 2 minutes.

i.e. a trip or hook is 2 minutes, high stick (intentional), cross check or slew foot is 3 minutes
- Cush29

minimum double minor. intent to injure is an automatic 2 + the call 2 or more.

Well, we are here now so no idea where that route would have taken us.
- Aaron_85

Obviously we don't. The glib comment I was trying to point out in that was that it was technically all moot. By November 2008, Brian Burke would have been in charge, and any groundwork towards a rebuild that had been paved would have been ripped apart in a vain attempt to win a cup with an inferior roster.

There is a suffusion of gray.

In all honesty, we can go back and look at the Muskoka Five or Knob-Hill-guy-Steve nixing the Gretzky deal, or, or, or . . .but I think all paths for this team were leading to where they are now.

I mean some fans can hate Shanahan if they want, but until he was hired and given carte blanche, there had not been a cohesive plan for the organization or the future that I recall seeing. I liked the Leafs' teams from the late 70s, or the two years of Fletcher, or maybe 4-5 years of Quinn's Leafs. But there was never a consistently laid out organizational plan like we're seeing now - at least not in my lifetime.

I will concede in that statement that during Quinn's years or Fletcher's years due to the absence of the cap there was the idea that we could fix our problems with money so we didn't need to care about scouting or prospects or development.
- Monkeypunk

From Ballard on, they all had a plan.

It was the same plan.

"Screw patience, let's get as good as we can as fast as we can, even if it means sacrificing the future."

I can't quite put my finger on it, but there must be a reason why Canadian teams can't get to the upper tier of the league.

I thought it was because no Canadian management team wanted to tank to build assets, but Edmonton has proved that theory wrong.

I think it's simply that for whatever reason, they don't have the patience to commit to a proper rebuild. It's always trade two firsts and a second for instant gratification.

minimum double minor. intent to injure is an automatic 2 + the call 2 or more.
- dmnted

They have all of that covered already, technically. I don't think they don't need tiers.

It's a minor or a major. They are just loathe to call a major because of "game management". The problem that exists with calling games properly starts and ends with game management.

An intent to injure is a major. If a high stick is delivered to a guy's face with an intent to injure, it should be 5. Who cares if there's blood? If there's no intent, it's an accidental high stick and it's 2, and I'm sorry if the person hit got a cut lip or a bloody nose out of it, but it's still 2. Stop repeatedly grabbing your face hoping to squeeze a droplet of blood out of your head.

A slew foot, a trip, a charge, boarding, interference, roughing and so on - these are all traditionally 2 minute minors, but the application to apply a 5 minute penalty for attempt to injure has always been there. Refs don't want to put a team short-handed for 7 minutes. I still say that teams should pay the price for having a guy like that on their team.

Tom Wilson can win you a lot of games. But you have to look twice at having Tom Wilson if he is also going to cost you a lot of games by putting you short-handed for 7 minutes 4 times a year.

Question for the guitar players here:

I need a topper-upper gift for my daughter's birthday. Think stocking stuffer.

Anything guitar-related you can think of?

Yes, she already has that thingy that makes guitar picks out of old hotel swipe cards.

And no, it doesn't make good guitar picks.

Thanks in advance.

minimum double minor. intent to injure is an automatic 2 + the call 2 or more.
- dmnted

Ya I know there is an actual "intent to injure" penalty but it's not used often and is a bit of a joke. I mean really if you think about how many "minor penalties" are in fact motivated by an intent to injure. I mean you high stick a guy in the teeth what was the intent to "separate the player from the puck"?


The only time you usually see the actual intent to injure penalty is when it's tacked onto another call because the actual offense was so bad.

Maybe the easier solution is to just use the intent to injure penalty alot more often than it's used now - and that's perhaps what you were saying?

Question for the guitar players here:

I need a topper-upper gift for my daughter's birthday. Think stocking stuffer.

Anything guitar-related you can think of?

Yes, she already has that thingy that makes guitar picks out of old hotel swipe cards.

And no, it doesn't make good guitar picks.

Thanks in advance.
- Atomic Wedgie

Booze? (Joking - you’d steal it all). Does she have a capo?

Booze? (Joking - you’d steal it all). Does she have a capo?
- Canada Cup

She has a capo.

And guitar stands.

And travel case.

They have all of that covered already, technically. I don't think they don't need tiers.

It's a minor or a major. They are just loathe to call a major because of "game management". The problem that exists with calling games properly starts and ends with game management.

An intent to injure is a major. If a high stick is delivered to a guy's face with an intent to injure, it should be 5. Who cares if there's blood? If there's no intent, it's an accidental high stick and it's 2, and I'm sorry if the person hit got a cut lip or a bloody nose out of it, but it's still 2. Stop repeatedly grabbing your face hoping to squeeze a droplet of blood out of your head.

A slew foot, a trip, a charge, boarding, interference, roughing and so on - these are all traditionally 2 minute minors, but the application to apply a 5 minute penalty for attempt to injure has always been there. Refs don't want to put a team short-handed for 7 minutes. I still say that teams should pay the price for having a guy like that on their team.

Tom Wilson can win you a lot of games. But you have to look twice at having Tom Wilson if he is also going to cost you a lot of games by putting you short-handed for 7 minutes 4 times a year.
- Monkeypunk

Ok I agree with most of this but I'm confused are you saying leave it up to the zebras to try and determine if any minor penalty had an intent to injure and if so they should issue the major for intent to injure? Sadly that's an option now but to your point they just loathe to do it.

I think you are better off to remove the arbitrary decision making as much as you can - so some penalties are an automatic 3min (just as an example) vs 2 min because it's pretty rare that a crosscheck or slew foot can be argued to not have been in an attempt to cause injury.

You can leave the 5 min intent to injure option there for the really bad stuff when needed but I think you hit the nail on the head with the jump from a 2 min penalty to a 5 refs just don't want to call a major often if ever.

Your comment about a high stick that is accidental and the jump to a major if there is blood is spot on. That poop drives me nuts......

I"m talking about something that probably will never happen but in my humble opinion should. Any league or tournament I have played in that had this tiered penalty set up seemed to have alot less of the BS and I would say had an effect on the players by them actually thinking twice about doing the stupid thing like a nasty cross check to the face because they were mad.

M'eh I guess for now we are stuck with the insanely inconsistent system we have.

Question for the guitar players here:

I need a topper-upper gift for my daughter's birthday. Think stocking stuffer.

Anything guitar-related you can think of?

Yes, she already has that thingy that makes guitar picks out of old hotel swipe cards.

And no, it doesn't make good guitar picks.

Thanks in advance.
- Atomic Wedgie

Clip on tuner, Acoustic Amp, New strings, I might suggest Martin Retro Strings ( a little more $, but great strings ) Capo, New Mic, Guitar strap, Wall guitar hanger, etc... Music stand is helpful as well.

Maybe a subscription to Tabs.Ultimate guitars.com great sight.

She has a capo.

And guitar stands.

And travel case.
- Atomic Wedgie

Baby amp or mic. Online lessons from my daughter - plug, plug.

Ok I agree with most of this but I'm confused are you saying leave it up to the zebras to try and determine if any minor penalty had an intent to injure and if so they should issue the major for intent to injure? Sadly that's an option now but to your point they just loathe to do it.

I think you are better off to remove the arbitrary decision making as much as you can - so some penalties are an automatic 3min (just as an example) vs 2 min because it's pretty rare that a crosscheck or slew foot can be argued to not have been in an attempt to cause injury.

You can leave the 5 min intent to injure option there for the really bad stuff when needed but I think you hit the nail on the head with the jump from a 2 min penalty to a 5 refs just don't want to call a major often if ever.

Your comment about a high stick that is accidental and the jump to a major if there is blood is spot on. That poop drives me nuts......

I"m talking about something that probably will never happen but in my humble opinion should. Any league or tournament I have played in that had this tiered penalty set up seemed to have alot less of the BS and I would say had an effect on the players by them actually thinking twice about doing the stupid thing like a nasty cross check to the face because they were mad.

M'eh I guess for now we are stuck with the insanely inconsistent system we have.


- Cush29

My contention here is that the refs are instructed to call the game under specific conditions. It's not a clear black-and-white "You get a penalty, and then YOU get a penalty", but there is definitely control of flow, momentum, and artificial parity enforced into a game to try and keep it competitive. Is that because the on-ice product is fuelled by the advertisements that will not be seen if people turn away or leave the arenas? I don't know. What I do know is that deliberately creating an artificial sense of the rules conditioned by teams, score, time remaining in the game or the type of game should never be a solution. It's advantageous to teams that more frequently bend or break the rules.

If you just went back to a 2005 policy: Call everything - the product would be better and teams would have to adjust their style of play to the rules - not the rules being adjusted the game.

She has a capo.

And guitar stands.

And travel case.
- Atomic Wedgie

acoustic or electric ?

how about that thing you can clamp down on the neck of the guitar to shorten the length of the strings?

https://www.amazon.com/gu...ar-clamp/s?k=guitar+clamp

edit: never mind

edit 2: how about a slide if she into that kind of music.
https://www.long-mcquade....2nGAiQEAYYBiABEgJIbfD_BwE