I think Provy was given too much responsibility too soon, and I just hope that it hasn’t permanently damaged him. I don’t think that it has. I still believe he’s going to end up being a great player eventually.

FWIW, the is organization did the same thing with Richards IMO.

He’s probably writing his letter or resignation.. to whom it may concern I cannot continue watching this team even if I am paid to do so...
- Hextall271

I can't blame him. The flyers are going to turn us all into alcoholics this season

Incorrect.

Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams.

By definition and Hextall's statements that they wanted to remain competitive while building up the prospect base and clearing up the cap situation, they were not tanking.
- MJL

I have to agree with MJL on this one, Hextall did not tank. In fact, I honestly don't believe he would be allowed to tank even if he wanted to. With players like Giroux and Jake in their primes on the roster already, Hextall needed to field a competitive team on the ice while focusing on rebuilding the system. Its a very hard thing to do both well, restock while challenging for cups, and it clearly did not work out. But it was not due to lack of effort or desire on Hextall's part. Hextall bleeds Orange and Black and would desire more than anyone to win a cup in Philly. I think he still feels the same way!

Yup, its was totally awesome!!
- jd250

Bill must be depressed

I have to agree with MJL on this one, Hextall did not tank. In fact, I honestly don't believe he would be allowed to tank even if he wanted to. With players like Giroux and Jake in their primes on the roster already, Hextall needed to field a competitive team on the ice while focusing on rebuilding the system. Its a very hard thing to do both well, restock while challenging for cups, and it clearly did not work out. But it was not due to lack of effort or desire on Hextall's part. Hextall bleeds Orange and Black and would desire more than anyone to win a cup in Philly. I think he still feels the same way!
- jd250

I respectfully believe there are 2 mistakes you are making in your analysis.

The first mistake is in believing that tanking is an all or nothing proposition. There are degrees of tanking, and anytime a GM ships out a better player like Hartnell in favor of a player-like Umberger for the sake of the future, that is an amount of tanking, because it lowers the chances of success that year in favor of the future..



The second one is philosophical. The fallacy lies in believing that passionately supporting a team and believing that it should not contend now are mutually exclusive. That is not true, in fact I could argue that many cases it is the same thing

I think if you're going to be a competitive team and pick in the middle of the first round or so then the window that was given to hextall is too short. You need a 10 to 12-year window before some of your picks turns out to be the game breaker kind and even then the odds are against you. The expectation of the fan base that he would turn things around in five years time was misguided.

I have to agree with MJL on this one, Hextall did not tank. In fact, I honestly don't believe he would be allowed to tank even if he wanted to. With players like Giroux and Jake in their primes on the roster already, Hextall needed to field a competitive team on the ice while focusing on rebuilding the system. Its a very hard thing to do both well, restock while challenging for cups, and it clearly did not work out. But it was not due to lack of effort or desire on Hextall's part. Hextall bleeds Orange and Black and would desire more than anyone to win a cup in Philly. I think he still feels the same way!
- jd250

Wouldn't say Hexy was going for Cups... seemed like he was trying to balance a proper rebuild with winning just enough to keep Dave Scott and the bean counters out of his hair.

What he was still able to do to reorganize the team's cap and stock the cupboard while still mostly making the PO's... seriously underappreciated by fans.

I think Provy was given too much responsibility too soon, and I just hope that it hasn’t permanently damaged him. I don’t think that it has. I still believe he’s going to end up being a great player eventually.

FWIW, the is organization did the same thing with Richards IMO.
- Big_E_88

And Giroux! Calling him the best player in the world,making him captain. That's right around when he seemed to lose the risk taking creativity he had in his first few years with the team. He still piled on the points, but seemed to lose the game breaking prowess he had earlier.

Remember that regular season game against Chicago when in the last 5 secs of the game he saucered a perfect long pass right on the blade of a rushing Pronger for a tap-in for the GW? When was the last time you saw him make a play like that recently against a quality opponent?

I respectfully believe there are 2 mistakes you are making in your analysis.

The first mistake is in believing that tanking is an all or nothing proposition. There are degrees of tanking, and anytime a GM ships out a better player like Hartnell in favor of a player-like Umberger for the sake of the future, that is an amount of tanking, because it lowers the chances of success that year in favor of the future..


- PT21

You're trying to argue a nuance that does not exist. If you are trying to remain competitive, you are not tanking. There are n degrees. Tanking is simply purposely fielding a non-competitive team. It is not difficult to distinguish between the meaning of competitive and non-competitive.

Wouldn't say Hexy was going for Cups... seemed like he was trying to balance a proper rebuild with winning just enough to keep Dave Scott and the bean counters out of his hair.

What he was still able to do to reorganize the team's cap and stock the cupboard while still mostly making the PO's... seriously underappreciated by fans.
- Tomahawk

This is what I don't fully understand for the Comcast owned Flyers.Why are Dave Scott like guys concerned? Ticket sales?

If a super heated cauldron that is Toronto and the Leafs can draft Matthews, Marner, Nylander in top picks over a short period of time, why cant we? (Ofc, they rushed the process by giving JT that contract but separate story)

You're trying to argue a nuance that does not exist. If you are trying to remain competitive, you are not tanking. There are n degrees. Tanking is simply purposely fielding a non-competitive team. It is not difficult to distinguish between the meaning of competitive and non-competitive.
- MJL

You will rarely to never find instances of the kind of tanking you are describing: the all or nothing version. Sixers recently were an exception.

Two years ago, Detroit kept Mantha and Larkin, but also left 9 million under the cap.

Were they tanking or not? If no, why did they not hire another FA? If yes, why did they not trade Larkin for prospects/picks?

Ergo: there has to be a gradation, a sliding scale.

I think if you're going to be a competitive team and pick in the middle of the first round or so then the window that was given to hextall is too short. You need a 10 to 12-year window before some of your picks turns out to be the game breaker kind and even then the odds are against you. The expectation of the fan base that he would turn things around in five years time was misguided.
- PT21

I agree here. Go back to 2008-2011 when the Flyers basically got nothing from those drafts. Most years they did not have a first or second round pick. They are paying for that right now.

08 First Round-Luca Sbisa No second rounder
09 No first or second rounder
2010 No first or second rounder
2011 First Round-Couturier No second rounder

So one great player in Couturier and one d-man that had a nice career. That is only the 1-2 round picks. Six other players that were traded away for short term fixes that did not result in a cup. They had basically nothing outside of the first two rounds either. The lack of internal depth also resulted in a 5 year span of cap issues.

For the record I was fine with Hextall's plan. He could have done better managing the talent level at the NHL level.

Draft and develop well consistently. That is how to win in the NHL.

You will rarely to never find instances of the kind of tanking you are describing: the all or nothing version. Sixers recently were an exception.

Two years ago, Detroit kept Mantha and Larkin, but also left 9 million under the cap.

Were they tanking or not? If no, why did they not hire another FA? If yes, why did they not trade Larkin for prospects/picks?

Ergo: there has to be a gradation, a sliding scale.
- PT21

No there doesn't have to be. The definition you want to use gives the term zero value. Zero distinction. In your view, trading a veteran player no longer in your future plans for a draft pick is a form of tanking. That is absurd.

This is what I don't fully understand for the Comcast owned Flyers.Why are Dave Scott like guys concerned? Ticket sales?

If a super heated cauldron that is Toronto and the Leafs can draft Matthews, Marner, Nylander in top picks over a short period of time, why cant we? (Ofc, they rushed the process by giving JT that contract but separate story)
- PT21

Ticket sales and brand maintenance probably.

Leafs mainly benefited from being bad in two really good years to be bad. Granted MLSE was fully buying into the Shanaplan at the time, so 'tanking' was allowed.

I agree here. Go back to 2008-2011 when the Flyers basically got nothing from those drafts. Most years they did not have a first or second round pick. They are paying for that right now.

08 First Round-Luca Sbisa No second rounder
09 No first or second rounder
2010 No first or second rounder
2011 First Round-Couturier No second rounder

So one great player in Couturier and one d-man that had a nice career. That is only the 1-2 round picks. Six other players that were traded away for short term fixes that did not result in a cup. They had basically nothing outside of the first two rounds either. The lack of internal depth also resulted in a 5 year span of cap issues.

For the record I was fine with Hextall's plan. He could have done better managing the talent level at the NHL level.

Draft and develop well consistently. That is how to win in the NHL.
- mickel25

Flyers seem to undervalue 2nd rounders ever since I have been a fan (20-25 years). High picks in the 2nd round are often as good as first rounders. Point, Aho were high 2nd rounders who are on the verge of superstardom.

Specifically, I believe Voracek and Simmonds should hae been traded earlier. I would have traded Schenn for Drouin when he was holding out in TB. It would have turned out to be the wrong move in retrospect, but it was a move I think would have been the right one based on info at the time.

Ticket sales and brand maintenance probably.

Leafs mainly benefited from being bad in two really good years to be bad. Granted MLSE was fully buying into the Shanaplan at the time, so 'tanking' was allowed.
- Tomahawk

Why didn't Comcast buy into Hextaplan? And Leafs were not just bad, they were allowed to be very bad for a while.

The only time we picked top 10 was Provorov, discounting lottery luck of NP.

- Tomahawk

Ekholm would have never done this however, too much perfection

No there doesn't have to be. The definition you want to use gives the term zero value. Zero distinction. In your view, trading a veteran player no longer in your future plans for a draft pick is a form of tanking. That is absurd.
- MJL

Dude, he traded one veteran for another. The vet part has nothing to do with it. He traded a better player for a worse one for term reasons. In doing so, he lowered competitiveness thiat year for the sake of the future.

You have an illogical aversion to the use of the term tanking. That is because you have loaded it with all this negative connotations.

I respectfully believe there are 2 mistakes you are making in your analysis.

The first mistake is in believing that tanking is an all or nothing proposition. There are degrees of tanking, and anytime a GM ships out a better player like Hartnell in favor of a player-like Umberger for the sake of the future, that is an amount of tanking, because it lowers the chances of success that year in favor of the future..

- PT21

Hartnell was on the downside of his career and had a ridiculous contract based on his production. The Flyers needed to clear space, Hartnell was a cap casualty, nothing more. It happens on teams all the time. Don't forget Hextall inherited a mess from Holmgren.

The second one is philosophical. The fallacy lies in believing that passionately supporting a team and believing that it should not contend now are mutually exclusive. That is not true, in fact I could argue that many cases it is the same thing

I think if you're going to be a competitive team and pick in the middle of the first round or so then the window that was given to hextall is too short. You need a 10 to 12-year window before some of your picks turns out to be the game breaker kind and even then the odds are against you. The expectation of the fan base that he would turn things around in five years time was misguided.
- PT21

Very true, so the fact that Hextall was picking in the mid to late 1st rounds should indicate that he was NOT tanking, right? I mean, Hextall could have come in and did what the Rangers, Devils and Red Wings have recently done, have a fire sale and pick in the top 3 for a few years straight. He didn't do that. He instead tried to balance both which I think was a mistake in hindsight.

Flyers seem to undervalue 2nd rounders ever since I have been a fan (20-25 years). High picks in the 2nd round are often as good as first rounders. Point, Aho were high 2nd rounders who are on the verge of superstardom.

Specifically, I believe Voracek and Simmonds should hae been traded earlier. I would have traded Schenn for Drouin when he was holding out in TB. It would have turned out to be the wrong move in retrospect, but it was a move I think would have been the right one based on info at the time.
- PT21

The draft examples you are showing are skewed in one direction, because at that time Holmgren was trading picks and prospects for players like Pronger, he was going for it! Hextall on the other hand certainly showed he valued picks, no matter what round they were in.,

Why didn't Comcast buy into Hextaplan? And Leafs were not just bad, they were allowed to be very bad for a while.

The only time we picked top 10 was Provorov, discounting lottery luck of NP.
- PT21

Leafs are the Leafs, tho. That team will have a waiting list for season tickets and print money everywhere else no matter what happens on the ice.

Flyers bandwagon is not quite that durable.

Remember, ping pong balls screwed them out of Patrick Kane. Flyers were by far the worst team that year. Flyers just have poop luck.

Hartnell was on the downside of his career and had a ridiculous contract based on his production. The Flyers needed to clear space, Hartnell was a cap casualty, nothing more. It happens on teams all the time. Don't forget Hextall inherited a mess from Holmgren.



Very true, so the fact that Hextall was picking in the mid to late 1st rounds should indicate that he was NOT tanking, right? I mean, Hextall could have come in and did what the Rangers, Devils and Red Wings have recently done, have a fire sale and pick in the top 3 for a few years straight. He didn't do that. He instead tried to balance both which I think was a mistake in hindsight.
- jd250

No, it means he was not all out tanking. He was tanking to some degree, just not extremely.

I can't blame him. The flyers are going to turn us all into alcoholics this season
- Malkins right knee

opposite for me, they have been scaring me straight!

The draft examples you are showing are skewed in one direction, because at that time Holmgren was trading picks and prospects for players like Pronger, he was going for it! Hextall on the other hand certainly showed he valued picks, no matter what round they were in.,
- jd250

I did not explain fully. What I meant is, if you draft very high, you kinda get two first rounders. A very high one, and a low one in the early 2nd round.

If you choose to not draft high, you are also giving up on the quality of a second rounder. Ans Point and Aho show, this can yield great dividends.

When people talk about Pastrnak, they say: oh, he was a first rounder. But where Pasta was drafted and where Aho/Point were dradted is only a few oplaces difference.

And Bobby Clarke had a certain disdain for 2nd rounders during some of the last years of his reign. He publicly said he thought it was a crapshoot.

No, it means he was not all out tanking. He was tanking to some degree, just not extremely.
- PT21

But this doesn't make any sense, why would anyone tank to some degree? How does that help you build a team and be successful. I can assure Hextall was not planning on waiting 10 years to field a competitive hockey team, that would be crazy. It was a tough situation to be honest. When Hextall joined the team, they had no prospects, very few picks, no cap space and some really good players on the roster. They tried to burn both ends of the candle, it didn't work out.