You're aware that Vrana was in the top 6 for the majority of the last 3 years in Washington.. right? Most common 5v5 line mates are Oshie, Kuzy, Backstrom with a 200 minute gap between Backstrom and Eller, Wilson, etc.

Playing top 6 won't be anything new for Vrana.
- j.boyd919

Thank you. And he said he watches all of the Caps games....

It is, because those picks aren’t making the NHL quicker than that (in this program). Hronek broke through, but for the most part even our best picks are waiting 3 years to step in. I hope to see Seider next year. Just look down the list. Zadina has stepped up huge defensively and that’s how he grabbed a spot. Other guys, it takes that 3 to 5 year development to get into the NHL
- Jeremy Laura

Right.

And you got a guy who's a year younger than Mantha that can produce at the same rate and a 1st and a 2nd to replace Mantha.

So not only did the Wings get younger, they also got more picks for the cupboard lol

He can be a Richard, but if there was a poll taken you'd see that most people think the Wings won this trade big time. Myself included for whatever that's worth.
- GPHawksfan

I’m fine with polling, but the point of the work i put into this is that I bring a certain perspective. Yzerman took Brett Connolly 6th overall in 2010. Slater Koekoek at 10th in 2012. He got Namestnikov in 2011 with Detroit’s pick ( i still hate that deal). Yzerman has said if 1 to 3 guys from an entire draft class make it to the NHL, that’s a huge success. Even if they’re 3rd or 4th line. Washington’s pick will likely be in the 20s. Without some insane luck, that’s a player 3 to 5 years out

Right.

And you got a guy who's a year younger than Mantha that can produce at the same rate and a 1st and a 2nd to replace Mantha.

So not only did the Wings get younger, they also got more picks for the cupboard lol
- j.boyd919

Again, he’s producing on a team with a goals for of 3.43 to a team with 2.22. Look at the talent on Washington. It is way easier to produce in that setting

Raymond and hopefully Berggren AND the top lottery player the wings are getting this draft. the wings are building this the right way.
- wingz4life

Thanks, Wingz. It's so very hard to see that right now. I'm a HUGE Mantha fan, full disclosure, so this move really kicks me in the nards. I know it does for lots of Wings fans. You know how high frustrations are with how things have gone for Detroit over the past several years. It's hard to drop the attachments when those bright spots are the only ones that shine (at times), and you know there's SO much more potential there. This is a bitter pill to swallow. BUT, you're right; we HAVE to trust the Yzerplan, as painful as it may be.

There were some AWESOME Points brought out by posters in this subject today. I'm going to try my best to remove the emotion and re-read them later.

GUYS: Let's take a breath, here.....mmmmmKay? Mmmkaigh! Seriously, just breathe.....and try to respect each other. We can't turn on each other because of a view or opinion. Again, LOTS to unpack. And each of us will do it our own way....

Thank you. And he said he watches all of the Caps games....
- LeafsPain54

Playing in the top due to injury more often than not. And, yeah, playing in the top 6 of insanely high end players. He moves up and down the roster quite a bit. I watch the games

Again, he’s producing on a team with a goals for of 3.43 to a team with 2.22. Look at the talent on Washington. It is way easier to produce in that setting
- Jeremy Laura

Tell Derrick Brassard that about his time in Pittsburgh.

Thanks, Wingz. It's so very hard to see that right now. I'm a HUGE Mantha fan, full disclosure, so this move really kicks me in the nards. I know it does for lots of Wings fans. You know how high frustrations are with how things have gone for Detroit over the past several years. It's hard to drop the attachments when those bright spots are the only ones that shine (at times), and you know there's SO much more potential there. This is a bitter pill to swallow. BUT, you're right; we HAVE to trust the Yzerplan, as painful as it may be.

There were some AWESOME Points brought out by posters in this subject today. I'm going to try my best to remove the emotion and re-read them later.

GUYS: Let's take a breath, here.....mmmmmKay? Mmmkaigh! Seriously, just breathe.....and try to respect each other. We can't turn on each other because of a view or opinion. Again, LOTS to unpack. And each of us will do it our own way....
- mcmastermike1968

we have to accept its going to be a long rebuild. yzerman has to get the players who dont buy in and get rid of more kennys leftover trash.

also, more of kennys trash is gone after next season with Nielsen and DeKeyser gone

Thanks, Wingz. It's so very hard to see that right now. I'm a HUGE Mantha fan, full disclosure, so this move really kicks me in the nards. I know it does for lots of Wings fans. You know how high frustrations are with how things have gone for Detroit over the past several years. It's hard to drop the attachments when those bright spots are the only ones that shine (at times), and you know there's SO much more potential there. This is a bitter pill to swallow. BUT, you're right; we HAVE to trust the Yzerplan, as painful as it may be.

There were some AWESOME Points brought out by posters in this subject today. I'm going to try my best to remove the emotion and re-read them later.

GUYS: Let's take a breath, here.....mmmmmKay? Mmmkaigh! Seriously, just breathe.....and try to respect each other. We can't turn on each other because of a view or opinion. Again, LOTS to unpack. And each of us will do it our own way....
- mcmastermike1968

Raymond had a bad year, I don’t think he’ll be in Detroit next season. Berggren, I hope. He was selected a couple picks after Veleno in 2018. He lit it up, but again could be sent to the AHL. Another 3 -5 year guy

I think that Vrana really benefits being a depth player in Washington. He’s got speed, and will be good for retrieval and PK. He and Mantha aren’t anything similar in playing style. The wait on even top 6 picks for Detroit has been fairly extensive. I just don’t see that we’ll know the benefit of this whole thing for 3-5 years. I wish Mantha the best, I really do. I just feel like this is another step in making the rebuild take longer
- Jeremy Laura

I love Mantha. I think he's a good player who doesn't get nearly enough respect from the fanbase. I am sad to see him leave.

I also think it's time to accept that he is not and will not ever be a star player in this league. He's almost 27. His best years are probably behind him. He's probably a good second liner on a contender but he is a complementary player, not someone you can build around.

I don't think this is as much of a setback as you think it is. The Wings got two competent roster forwards back, one of whom is an RFA. They get two more shots at a top prospect.

I strongly disagree that Vrana is fundamentally a grinder. You may be proven right that he will struggle with the added minutes and without the "protection" of Washington's top two lines. However that is certainly not the only way this could play out. Robby Fabbri is a great counterexample of a good player, undervalued on a good team, who has flourished as a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Like Fabbri, Vrana also is a very good finisher, which is a skill not as dependent on teammates or position in the lineup as chance creation (which is also something that looks good in Vrana's metrics).

I get where you're coming from, I do. But I think you are both fundamentally overrating Mantha's importance to the long-term rebuild and too dismissive of Vrana's potential for success.

Also, lots of Franzen hate in this thread, which I also think is super unfair. But that’s an argument for another day.

I’m fine with polling, but the point of the work i put into this is that I bring a certain perspective. Yzerman took Brett Connolly 6th overall in 2010. Slater Koekoek at 10th in 2012. He got Namestnikov in 2011 with Detroit’s pick ( i still hate that deal). Yzerman has said if 1 to 3 guys from an entire draft class make it to the NHL, that’s a huge success. Even if they’re 3rd or 4th line. Washington’s pick will likely be in the 20s. Without some insane luck, that’s a player 3 to 5 years out
- Jeremy Laura

Well you guys have a lot of poopty players on bad contracts and a rebuild wasn't gonna happen in two years anyway. Yzerman may have missed on those firsts you mentioned but he hit on Point and Kucherov in later rounds did he not? Palat an Killorn were later round picks too. Or was that another GM in Tampa? I'm not entirely sure.

I’m fine with polling, but the point of the work i put into this is that I bring a certain perspective. Yzerman took Brett Connolly 6th overall in 2010. Slater Koekoek at 10th in 2012. He got Namestnikov in 2011 with Detroit’s pick ( i still hate that deal). Yzerman has said if 1 to 3 guys from an entire draft class make it to the NHL, that’s a huge success. Even if they’re 3rd or 4th line. Washington’s pick will likely be in the 20s. Without some insane luck, that’s a player 3 to 5 years out
- Jeremy Laura

the year he took Koekoek 10th he also took the best player in the draft 19th in Vasilevsky.

The year Namestnikov was taken he also took Kucherov, again the best player from that draft.

I dont think Yzermans draft history is an issue. Every team will have misses but he seems to have a ton of hits.

Also I disagree with the prevailing wisdom that the Caps got fleeced. I think the deal makes sense for both sides.

I love Mantha. I think he's a good player who doesn't get nearly enough respect from the fanbase. I am sad to see him leave.

I also think it's time to accept that he is not and will not ever be a star player in this league. He's almost 27. His best years are probably behind him. He's probably a good second liner on a contender but he is a complementary player, not someone you can build around.

I don't think this is as much of a setback as you think it is. The Wings got two competent roster forwards back, one of whom is an RFA. They get two more shots at a top prospect.

I strongly disagree that Vrana is fundamentally a grinder. You may be proven right that he will struggle with the added minutes and without the "protection" of Washington's top two lines. However that is certainly not the only way this could play out. Robby Fabbri is a great counterexample of a good player, undervalued on a good team, who has flourished as a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Like Fabbri, Vrana also is a very good finisher, which is a skill not as dependent on teammates or position in the lineup as chance creation (which is also something that looks good in Vrana's metrics).

I get where you're coming from, I do. But I think you are both fundamentally overrating Mantha's importance to the long-term rebuild and too dismissive of Vrana's potential for success.
- Sven22

Well articulated sir.

Well needless to say, the lines tonight are going to be gross, with Mantha gone, Bert, Fabbri, Ryan all out, hell just make the Erne, Glendening, Helm line the 2nd at this point. Keep Svech, Larkin, Zadina together on the top and start shuffling when the new guys are good to go.

Jeremy I understand and see the point that you are making. No VRANA does not have the ability to take over games in ways that mantha can. But I think we all gotta understand that mantha was never gonna be the player we wanted him to be in Detroit. Mantha is the type of guy who needs elite talent around him. And years of blashill and losing I think got to him. I’m willing to bet moving mantha has been in the works for awhile just wasn’t made public like dubios and liane. I totally respect where you’re coming from but I think we did well for the situation we were in. VRANAs wheels and 200 ft game are nothing to take lightly and considering his 52 points last year and 25 goals averaging under 15:00 mins a night I think is possible to be replicated with more minutes and the same caliber line mates if you consider he’ll be garnering top line minutes with guys like Larkin zadina fabbri and bertuzzi who should be better if not equal to the people VRANA played with in Washington. Also I would like to throw in again Stevie is a boss in the draft that first and second might turn out to be special.

Well needless to say, the lines tonight are going to be gross, with Mantha gone, Bert, Fabbri, Ryan all out, hell just make the Erne, Glendening, Helm line the 2nd at this point. Keep Svech, Larkin, Zadina together on the top and start shuffling when the new guys are good to go.
- Datsyuks_Dangle

tank mode activated.

I mean I hope the other thing tbat comes out of this is we see way more Evgeny Svechnikov in the lineup!

No, I’m not high. And no, Vrana isn’t the best player in the deal. He is a grinder. He’s got some scoring touch, but he’s a 3rd line guy on a very good team
- Jeremy Laura

I think you'll reconsider this statement.
Guy was our only explosive forward (that speed is special), before we got Sheary.

Maybe with Sheary, they thought he was expendable or something. I'm peeved though.

He wasn't getting great minutes, and was a bit careless defensively sometimes, but his speed can be dominant, and he's got a sneaky finish.

Will be interesting to see him step into a bigger role; I know nothing about Mantha, but Vrana has certifiable upside (guy basically won Game 7 against Tampa for us).

reading how highly many of you rate Mantha makes me feel a bit better about this trade (still got fleeced though).

Panik is sort of throw away, but Vrana AND picks? Rough.

reading how highly many of you rate Mantha makes me feel a bit better about this trade (still got fleeced though).

Panik is sort of throw away, but Vrana AND picks? Rough.
- ghostibator

There's no denying Mantha's talent. You just don't know how often you'll see it.

5v5 goals per 60 since 18/19

Vrana - 1.36

Mantha - 0.76
- Feds91Stammer

VRANA will be a better fit for the wings.. he’ll easily put up 25 goals next year and 55 points. Something that we’ve yet to see mantha do... does MANTHA probably score 30 next year?! Most likely but we woulda never got that production here from him.. he didn’t wanna be a wing anymore it was evident when watching.

Great deal for Detroit. Vrana is a good player and you got a 1st and 2nd. Panik is whatever but doesn't matter.

VRANA will be a better fit for the wings.. he’ll easily put up 25 goals next year and 55 points. Something that we’ve yet to see mantha do... does MANTHA probably score 30 next year?! Most likely but we woulda never got that production here from him.. he didn’t wanna be a wing anymore it was evident when watching.
- Bfab91

Again, I don’t think it’s as easy as it looks for him. I think his scoring will take a dip. Yzerman’s presser was interesting. When he first got to town, it was clear that Rasmussen was on the outs. Now, he’s praising Rasmussen (also mentioned Zadina) and says he wants players to surround those two with. Svechnikov has been better this year, and I like Rasmussen’s physicality, but I still view him as a bottom 6 guy.