The phrase is a little nebulous, "playing as a team". Would you say that this requires forwards to be diligent back checkers? That would rule out Kane and Kucherov for the most part. Finish your checks? That would rule out Kessel. Not take undisciplined penalties? Malkin does so all the time, especially in away games. Not be top heavy? Again, Pens during their 2nd cup run were grotesquely unbalanced in star power.

I would reverse the priorities you mention above. You need to first have talent and then add the team and depth and physicality around it.
- PT21

We are saying the same thing just in different languages. The Pens won back to back cups because they were talented, had depth and every player bought in. Why didn't they win the cup from 2010 to 2016?

If forwards don't backcheck you get the 2020-2021 Flyers. Sure Kane and Kucherov are not "great" at it but they score enough to outweigh the negative of them not.

Again, it comes down to each player doing there job within the team structure. Whether you have the talent first or not is irrelevant. You won't win without having both.

I feel Snider represented a paradigm that had passed before his own passing: entrepreneurial passionate owner, gut and instinct guy, large-hearted, willing to spend whatever it took. The opposite of an analytics guy, who builds in increments, in short.

He wanted Bryzgalov, he did not want Giroux and Voracek to be "grapes that die on the vine," he would never do a full rebuild and so on. He did not understand the dynamics of the salary cap age.

The sports model is already confused with the tension between revenue and fandom. If you confuse it further with parochialism and tribal loyalty and so on, its even more difficult.
- PT21

I give homer a pass for the crazy all in moves he made toward end of tenure. I think it’s obvious they were trying to go all in to win a cup for Ed before he died. They definitely sold everything trying but I’m cool with it. I think Ed deserved that shot. When pronger got injured and it was clear career over that was that. To Ed’s credit he signed off on full organizational rebuild when hexy came. It’s been a process for sure the thing that bothers me to no end is bean counter interference. Hexy saying it wasn’t go time and being fired for bs excuses was a setback IMO. Not that fletch can’t build but it put major pause on rebuild. Now we are at crossroad. Some want another rebuild others want to keep status quo others want trades. It will be interesting for sure these next couple years.

I have been watching him play because I think the Flyers could use him. At 33 the contract has to be right but my one thing with older players is can they skate and he can...
- wcorvette

At age 33 I’d want no part of him unless it was strictly to upgrade the 3rd pair. He does almost nothing if we don’t get a 1c or 1d.
For example we get Hamilton and Alex the d so much better it can really help compensate for lower scoring. We get an eichel for example and Alex the offense so much better the d won’t be playing in their zone as much. Without those what getting him do?

At age 33 I’d want no part of him unless it was strictly to upgrade the 3rd pair. He does almost nothing if we don’t get a 1c or 1d.
For example we get Hamilton and Alex the d so much better it can really help compensate for lower scoring. We get an eichel for example and Alex the offense so much better the d won’t be playing in their zone as much. Without those what getting him do?
- Stayin alive

for sure there could be better targets, maybe they land the big fish. But he has 32 point if 52 games and if you have not watched him play you might want to.


Not sure he plays the right side but if he does he would slot really well with provy.

At age 33 I’d want no part of him unless it was strictly to upgrade the 3rd pair. He does almost nothing if we don’t get a 1c or 1d.
For example we get Hamilton and Alex the d so much better it can really help compensate for lower scoring. We get an eichel for example and Alex the offense so much better the d won’t be playing in their zone as much. Without those what getting him do?
- Stayin alive

1C?

I give homer a pass for the crazy all in moves he made toward end of tenure. I think it’s obvious they were trying to go all in to win a cup for Ed before he died. They definitely sold everything trying but I’m cool with it. I think Ed deserved that shot. When pronger got injured and it was clear career over that was that. To Ed’s credit he signed off on full organizational rebuild when hexy came. It’s been a process for sure the thing that bothers me to no end is bean counter interference. Hexy saying it wasn’t go time and being fired for bs excuses was a setback IMO. Not that fletch can’t build but it put major pause on rebuild. Now we are at crossroad. Some want another rebuild others want to keep status quo others want trades. It will be interesting for sure these next couple years.
- Stayin alive

all the years going for it, then the CAP hits, the Flyers still haven't recovered from it.

We are saying the same thing just in different languages. The Pens won back to back cups because they were talented, had depth and every player bought in. Why didn't they win the cup from 2010 to 2016?

If forwards don't backcheck you get the 2020-2021 Flyers. Sure Kane and Kucherov are not "great" at it but they score enough to outweigh the negative of them not.

Again, it comes down to each player doing there job within the team structure. Whether you have the talent first or not is irrelevant. You won't win without having both.
- mickel25

Honestly, because I feel they needed more talent and speed. James Neal is a nice piece, but he is not Kessel's level. Hagelin added a lot of speed.

I am thinking of talent first simply because once you have that, it is easier to add complementary pieces. For example, if you have a great playmaking center, you might want to get a pure sniper and vice versa. If your talent is more skill than size, you add team toughness.

But having team and then getting talent means said talent may not fit into nature of existing team. If you look at all the cup winning teams of past couple of decades, most of the critical talent came as young stars. Chara is the only guy I can think of who came as a established vet and turned out to be the transforming foundational piece.

We tried to trade our way to the titles in the Clarke years, with the parade of big names: Oates, Amonte, Roenick, Hatcher, Gratton, Primeau, all of them (except perhaps Gratton) already very established stars, and we failed miserably.

I give homer a pass for the crazy all in moves he made toward end of tenure. I think it’s obvious they were trying to go all in to win a cup for Ed before he died. They definitely sold everything trying but I’m cool with it. I think Ed deserved that shot. When pronger got injured and it was clear career over that was that. To Ed’s credit he signed off on full organizational rebuild when hexy came. It’s been a process for sure the thing that bothers me to no end is bean counter interference. Hexy saying it wasn’t go time and being fired for bs excuses was a setback IMO. Not that fletch can’t build but it put major pause on rebuild. Now we are at crossroad. Some want another rebuild others want to keep status quo others want trades. It will be interesting for sure these next couple years.
- Stayin alive

Good point. I agree with being ok with it.

Again, good point.

The move that may damn the franchise in the short term is honestly the Hayes signing when JVR is already in the books and Couturier is due a big payday. Whatever else you may say about Hexy's drafts, he did a reasonably nice job managing the cap. Giroux, JVR and Jake would have all come off the cap in 2-3 more years. In the mean time 4-5 more quality prospects + huge cap space.

I feel THAT would have been the time to make a move.

1C?
- mickel25

Yes 1c. Coots is average at best 1c but a great 2c he’s slotted wrong. Just like provy isn’t a 1a dman more like a 1b. Look at the top line centers in league. Where do you think coots ranks. I mean if we’re talking speed skill all that? Now look at the 2c on the teams and add the defensive play aspect. Coots top 3 2c in league. In 1c role he’s in middle of pact. Same goes for provy
It’s not a knock in them they are really good players but they are a tier below

Speed and talent can win. But speed and top elite talent always beat out just speed and talent. Isles got as far as they can go with this type team. They will lose out tb because tb offers same as isle but also has more elite players at key positions
- Stayin alive

Yea because the lightning are just talent thrown on a roster....pretty damn good team themselves, people need to stop taking posts so literally

Good point. I agree with being ok with it.

Again, good point.

The move that may damn the franchise in the short term is honestly the Hayes signing when JVR is already in the books and Couturier is due a big payday. Whatever else you may say about Hexy's drafts, he did a reasonably nice job managing the cap. Giroux, JVR and Jake would have all come off the cap in 2-3 more years. In the mean time 4-5 more quality prospects + huge cap space.

I feel THAT would have been the time to make a move.
- PT21

Yeah I always had a problem with the Jvr signing as it kinda went against hexys plan. I think he was kinda forced into making a signing from pressure to speed process right or wrong. It’s got a bean counter written all over it. Plus pressure from fan base that never tried to rebuild through draft. Hayes I’m honestly fine with. Yes we over payed slightly but that will always happen with better Fa’s. Honestly I see little difference between coots and Hayes. Yes coots IMO slightly better but I think they BOTH ideally slot into 2c roll. So which is better Hayes at 7 mil or coots who is slightly better at 9 mil and older with more miles on body for same slotted position 2c? I take Hayes everyday of the week in that scenario which is coming up next year.

Yea because the lightning are just talent thrown on a roster....pretty damn good team themselves, people need to stop taking posts so literally
- ClaudeFather

Which is why when we finally have cap space, we STEAL a player through offer sheet.

Who would be willing to trade four 1sts for a (hypothetically) McKinnon or Matthews?

I would.

Yea because the lightning are just talent thrown on a roster....pretty damn good team themselves, people need to stop taking posts so literally
- ClaudeFather

I was just stating that a team as isle are at this point have gone at best far as they can go. Can substitute col vegas and probably a few other in there instead of tb. Tb was just the example

Which is why when we finally have cap space, we STEAL a player through offer sheet.

Who would be willing to trade four 1sts for a (hypothetically) McKinnon or Matthews?

I would.
- DrMidnite

I absolutely would too. But we know collusion so it won’t happen. Total bs teams don’t use offer sheet. It would really make league interesting

Which is why when we finally have cap space, we STEAL a player through offer sheet.

Who would be willing to trade four 1sts for a (hypothetically) McKinnon or Matthews?

I would.
- DrMidnite

They are both signed, and will be UFAs.

Makar would be my choice. They are a tad cash strapped. Go in and blow them away: 7 years, 10.5 AAV.

Yeah I always had a problem with the Jvr signing as it kinda went against hexys plan. I think he was kinda forced into making a signing from pressure to speed process right or wrong. It’s got a bean counter written all over it. Plus pressure from fan base that never tried to rebuild through draft. Hayes I’m honestly fine with. Yes we over payed slightly but that will always happen with better Fa’s. Honestly I see little difference between coots and Hayes. Yes coots IMO slightly better but I think they BOTH ideally slot into 2c roll. So which is better Hayes at 7 mil or coots who is slightly better at 9 mil and older with more miles on body for same slotted position 2c? I take Hayes everyday of the week in that scenario which is coming up next year.
- Stayin alive

Couts is way better than Hayes. Come on, swami.

They are both signed, and will be UFAs.

Makar would be my choice. They are a tad cash strapped. Go in and blow them away: 7 years, 10.5 AAV.
- PT21

I was speaking in hypotheticals.

I'm not sure but that would have been the cost to offer sheet Stamkos back in 2013 or so.

I think the compensation depends on the size of the contract.

They are both signed, and will be UFAs.

Makar would be my choice. They are a tad cash strapped. Go in and blow them away: 7 years, 10.5 AAV.
- PT21

The league would be the wild west, it would be SO much more interesting.

And create bad, bad blood between teams.

Couts is way better than Hayes. Come on, swami.
- PT21

Is he? 1 70 point season? And what does Hayes have if giving coots time on pp1 and things of that nature? Again I think coots is a little better but not enough to say I’d rather have him at the contract he’s gonna get plus adding in age and miles on body. Now if we’re talking 10 years ago and both same age and all that then sure coots all day long but with the whole package now as it is in real life the play is Hayes. Plus look at it this way if coots were moved it would be Hayes +coots return vs just coots.

The league would be the wild west, it would be SO much more interesting.

And create bad, bad blood between teams.
- DrMidnite

All good things lol

Couts is way better than Hayes. Come on, swami.
- PT21

lol it's not even close. swami is on that dog food.

lol it's not even close. swami is on that dog food.
- Ftown19125

Coots 2019 stats 22g-37a
Hayes 2019 stays 23g-18a

Both played major role in pk and defensive game situations

Coots pp1
Hayes pp2

Both realively healthy

Coots 2019 stats 22g-37a
Hayes 2019 stays 23g-18a

Both played major role in pk and defensive game situations

Coots pp1
Hayes pp2

Both realively healthy
- Stayin alive

I throw this bs fake season out due to obvious reason plus Hayes as we found out playing injured.

Is he? 1 70 point season? And what does Hayes have if giving coots time on pp1 and things of that nature? Again I think coots is a little better but not enough to say I’d rather have him at the contract he’s gonna get plus adding in age and miles on body. Now if we’re talking 10 years ago and both same age and all that then sure coots all day long but with the whole package now as it is in real life the play is Hayes. Plus look at it this way if coots were moved it would be Hayes +coots return vs just coots.
- Stayin alive

2 76 point seasons, and 2 more truncated seasons where he was well on pace for 2 more 70+ point seasons. Bergeron has had nothing remotely like that over so long, and he plays with far better wingers in their prime and is considered an all time great. Couts dominant in face offs, improved every line he is on. Great in analytics. Hardly ever has a bad game - not streaky, always consistent.

Maybe not a top 1 c. But he is not chopped liver either. Render unto Couturier what is due unto Couturier.

2 76 point seasons, and 2 more truncated seasons where he was well on pace for 2 more 70+ point seasons. Bergeron has had nothing remotely like that over so long, and he plays with far better wingers in their prime and is considered an all time great. Couts dominant in face offs, improved every line he is on. Great in analytics. Hardly ever has a bad game - not streaky, always consistent.

Maybe not a top 1 c. But he is not chopped liver either. Render unto Couturier what is due unto Couturier.
- PT21

Like Ben Simmons, he gets no respect for his defensive prowess.