So Hamilton predicted contract is around 7 years at 8.5

who is in

who is out

If the Flyers had a core that is young and has demonstrated they are as good as any core in the league, I would completely agree with you. But that is not the case with this Flyers team currently. Their so-called "best players" are not top players in this league. They are all older and going to continue to slide in their ability, thus its not like you can be patient and continue to build around them. The Flyers have to develop a new core to build around, and the only way they can do this is to jettison as much of the current core as they can. This past season, and pretty much all the previous seasons have hinted to the same thing, the core of this team is not good enough to win a cup, or even seriously contend for one. These are just facts that need to be addressed, otherwise we continue to wallow in mediocrity!
- jd250

I disagree that they have to jettison as much of the current core as they can. The core they are building around is not Giroux and Voracek. The future core of this team is the young players and whoever they draft in the near future. That is who they need to build around. They need to make some moves to fill a few holes that are necessary now. All previous seasons have not hinted to the young core not being good enough. We don't know that now. Last year was an outlier and the worst thing the Flyers can do is overreact to last year and make drastic changes. If they do, it will be a death sentence to this team's future chances and will set them back. They may be better but they'll be stuck in a position that makes it more difficult to get to the top. Hey, but the seats will be full.

At what point is it fair to ask Provy to be the main guy and carry his pair? At some point when does he step up instead of him needing a great partner? This assumes he is the stud many believe. Maybe he just isn't that guy which is fine as he is a damn good dman.
- hello it's me 2050

Who is saying he needs a great Partner? Was Niskanen Great? He needs a competent partner, all Dmen do. One Dman cant defend against 5 other guys. You need the other 4 guys on the ice to be in position. If the other defenseman cant defend his side is exposed. Provorov cant cover both sides of the ice at once

This is what I would consider to be an overreaction and a stupid move by the Flyers, to try to obtain Jones. The better move for the Flyers is to sign Larsson and one other defenseman. The Flyers will have cap space, especially after the ED, they need to spend it wisely on several players, not one player!
- jd250

Disagree. The dumb move is to sign lesser players like Larsson, who I like and another marginal player. It won't elevate them high enough. If you're going to cap out, add real game changers. Not more "Hayes" level players.

I disagree that they have to jettison as much of the current core as they can. The core they are building around is not Giroux and Voracek. The future core of this team is the young players and whoever they draft in the near future. That is who they need to build around. They need to make some moves to fill a few holes that are necessary now. All previous seasons have not hinted to the young core not being good enough. We don't know that now. Last year was an outlier and the worst thing the Flyers can do is overreact to last year and make drastic changes. If they do, it will be a death sentence to this team's future chances and will set them back. They may be better but they'll be stuck in a position that makes it more difficult to get to the top. Hey, but the seats will be full.
- MJL

you completely overrate the "young" core. They are not nearly as good as you think or want them to be. Some Good solid players is all. Yes the prior season have hinted at the young core not being good enough. See the results.

How far away are they?

I am not in favor of getting jones. Has nothing to do with the player. Unless they are going to get rid of 50% of the core it wont matter anyway what they do. This core is rotten

I just hope the GM has plan B C and D ready. Him having tunnel vison for Jones only would not be good.

The more interesting question is what do the do in goal? Hart poopz the bed again they can have ab all star team and it wont matter. Haven't heard/read any rumors on they may look at.
- hello it's me 2050

Elliot Friedman was just on NHL radio and said the Flyers have talked to CLB about Jones but he’s not willing to sign an extension in Philly at this time….making a deal harder to make .

Who is saying he needs a great Partner? Was Niskanen Great? He needs a competent partner, all Dmen do. One Dman cant defend against 5 other guys. You need the other 4 guys on the ice to be in position. If the other defenseman cant defend his side is exposed. Provorov cant cover both sides of the ice at once
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

semantics in terms of great. You know what I mean. Point is everyone says he needs the "Right" partner. Well you can apply that to every player. When does the time come where is expected to elevate his partner?

Define a competent partner? Niskannen was great last year before the shut down.

Disagree. The dumb move is to sign lesser players like Larsson, who I like and another marginal player. It won't elevate them high enough. If you're going to cap out, add real game changers. Not more "Hayes" level players.
- MJL

Is Jones a game changer? After giving up assets how much is
jones going to "elevate" them? How much closer to a cup does Jones get them?

Elliot Friedman was just on NHL radio and said the Flyers have talked to CLB about Jones but he’s not willing to sign an extension in Philly at this time….making a deal harder to make .
- landros 2

I do not blame him one bit

I do not blame him one bit
- hello it's me 2050

The organization is not in great spot right now. 8 years of passive moves and average drafting will do that. The Flyers are what they are….mediocre.

The organization is not in great spot right now. 8 years of passive moves and average drafting will do that. The Flyers are what they are….mediocre.
- landros 2

From a plyer standpoint there is no attraction. None at all to entice you to come except over payment of money.

I would love to know what current players think about the organization.

They deserve credit for sticking with their guns, despite a lot of calls to change course. They could have easily listened to those voices that their core would never get over the hump, that they were just another San Jose. They could have easily made Jon Cooper the scapegoat after 1st-round exits and after missing the POs completely in 16-17. They could have easily canned Yzerman at numerous points.

People talk like they were a bunch of figure skaters who only got bigger/grittier after the Jackets sweep, but they forget the Bolts always had big and/or gritty dudes like Gudas, Salo, Coburn, Callahan, Brewer, Malone, Garrison, Pyatt, Boyle, Sustr, etc.

The real reason why Tampa is so hard to beat now is their continuity and chemistry. A lot of their guys have been together for 8, 9, 10 years+. That's the real takeaway from their success, IMO. Draft, develop and stick w/ your guns. Don't panic.
- Tomahawk

We have had this discussion before. *smile*


1. First, Tampa had precisely the "bunch of figure skaters" reputation you mention. They were known as the "greatest show on ice" and it was not working. This is not my opinion. The style and the opinion that it was not working is that of Jon Cooper. He should know, right?

2. Do you know why they did not dismantle their core? Here is the statistical reason why: The points per game of the core in the playoffs were very good and the sample set is quite large. All the top guys (save for Drouin who is a different story as you know) were producing and they were all kept.

3. Tampa significantly changed their style and the surrounding personnel, determinedly, frequently and purposefully. They were getting pushed around and outhustled in the playoffs and they took necessary steps.

In particular, the 2019 playoffs significantly accelerated the process. look at the players they added for the run last year: Goodrow. Coleman. Maroon. Bogosian. Shattenkirk. Luke Schenn. What jumps out at you? These are all vet players who are known to be gritty. There are no Derek Grants type players here. And all but Schenn started most games of the playoffs.

The difference between Tampa versus Sharks/Flyers is this. Tampa provided core continuity because of performance. Sharks*/Philly provided core continuity (*except for the disastrous Karlsson trade) in spite of performance.

Outside keeping the core, Tampa made very purposeful changes in style and supporting players. Far from platitudes like sticking to their guns, they made the changes the data indicated they should make, and did not make the ones the data indicated they shouldn't

I do not blame him one bit
- hello it's me 2050

I don't either.

Who is saying he needs a great Partner? Was Niskanen Great? He needs a competent partner, all Dmen do. One Dman cant defend against 5 other guys. You need the other 4 guys on the ice to be in position. If the other defenseman cant defend his side is exposed. Provorov cant cover both sides of the ice at once
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Depends on what your standards are. Regular season or playoffs. Nisky/Provy had a pretty middling playoffs in 2020 as best. Nisky in particular had trouble against both the speed of the Isles and the physicality of Anders Lee in the paint.

I am not in favor of getting jones. Has nothing to do with the player. Unless they are going to get rid of 50% of the core it wont matter anyway what they do. This core is rotten

I just hope the GM has plan B C and D ready. Him having tunnel vison for Jones only would not be good.

The more interesting question is what do the do in goal? Hart poopz the bed again they can have ab all star team and it wont matter. Haven't heard/read any rumors on they may look at.
- hello it's me 2050

I largely agree. Not so much rotten as not good enough...

The question is totally irrelevant. The Avs would match any OS. They have plenty of cap space and there is no chance they let him go.
- BenderRodriguez

They actually don't have that much space. They have a lot of players to sign and are known to be in a cap crunch. They will likely match Makar but not at any cost. If you go 11m or something absurd like that they likely cannot/will not match and will take the 4 1sts. But we are not in a position to make gambles like that.

The organization is not in great spot right now. 8 years of passive moves and average drafting will do that. The Flyers are what they are….mediocre.
- landros 2

When your drafting position is average, chances are high your results will also be average. Tampa drafting is an outlier. Whether it is luck or sagacity is a different story. Point is, they are an outlier and Flyers draft and development record is pretty much in line with expectations with their draft position. A few misses. A few solid NHL players. Some with potential higher than that and some not living up to hype.

We have had this discussion before. *smile*


1. First, Tampa had precisely the "bunch of figure skaters" reputation you mention. They were known as the "greatest show on ice" and it was not working. This is not my opinion. The style and the opinion that it was not working is that of Jon Cooper. He should know, right?


- PT21

You tend to toggle back and forth from statistical evidence to anecdotal evidence depending on what suits your premise. Cooper's statement was that there were times when they were the "greatest show on ice" The fact remains that when they lost to Columbus in 18/19, they were a top 10 NHL team in GA/GP

2. Do you know why they did not dismantle their core? Here is the statistical reason why: The points per game of the core in the playoffs were very good and the sample set is quite large. All the top guys (save for Drouin who is a different story as you know) were producing and they were all kept.

3. Tampa significantly changed their style and the surrounding personnel, determinedly, frequently and purposefully. They were getting pushed around and outhustled in the playoffs and they took necessary steps.

In particular, the 2019 playoffs significantly accelerated the process. look at the players they added for the run last year: Goodrow. Coleman. Maroon. Bogosian. Shattenkirk. Luke Schenn. What jumps out at you? These are all vet players who are known to be gritty. There are no Derek Grants type players here. And all but Schenn started most games of the playoffs.


- PT21

Every team makes additions to their team after a season. Note that even though they won the Cup in 19/20, they still made some personnel changes. The core of their team did not change. They did not change their style of play.

The difference between Tampa versus Sharks/Flyers is this. Tampa provided core continuity because of performance. Sharks*/Philly provided core continuity (*except for the disastrous Karlsson trade) in spite of performance.

Outside keeping the core, Tampa made very purposeful changes in style and supporting players. Far from platitudes like sticking to their guns, they made the changes the data indicated they should make, and did not make the ones the data indicated they shouldn't


- PT21

They didn't make changes in style of play. They simply got better. Losing in the first round to Columbus isn't exactly performance. The point that you overlook here and what Tomahawk made is that they didn't panic after that first round loss. They absolutely "stuck to their guns" and stayed the course that they had been on. This point applies to the Flyers in that even though they had a really poor season last year, the best course of action is not to drastically change but to tweak and see what happens with the young core and who they can add in the draft in the future. Add a key piece if a deal makes sense but don't abandon the draft and develop process in order to hastily try and escalate the team's growth. That is the point that you missed.

They actually don't have that much space. They have a lot of players to sign and are known to be in a cap crunch. They will likely match Makar but not at any cost. If you go 11m or something absurd like that they likely cannot/will not match and will take the 4 1sts. But we are not in a position to make gambles like that.
- PT21

Makar is likely going to get a 10M deal. If you go to 11, the Avs absolutely would match that. Without a doubt. One million more is not going to make they walk away.

When your drafting position is average, chances are high your results will also be average. Tampa drafting is an outlier. Whether it is luck or sagacity is a different story. Point is, they are an outlier and Flyers draft and development record is pretty much in line with expectations with their draft position. A few misses. A few solid NHL players. Some with potential higher than that and some not living up to hype.
- PT21

It is way too early to look at many of the young players and know definitively where they will ultimately wind up. For example, Frost is a highly skilled player. How will that translate on ice? Who knows at this point. Farabee has a legit chance to be a 35-35 player. Will that happen? Hart has the talent and skill to be a top player in the league at his position. Will that happen? Provorov can be better with a strong partner and solid team play. Sanhiem and Myers both have the ability to be better. Allison has grit and determination and a heavy shot and a nose for the puck. What is his upside? Unknown. York has a chance to be a really strong 2 way puck moving defenseman. Will Lindblom regain his strength and get back to being a forechecking force and a 20+ goal two way winger? There are also other prospects who have a chance to become NHL players. It's true they lack that blue chip young stud player that has a chance to be a star but that can change in the future. With a little luck.

When did Jones get traded to CO?
- BenderRodriguez

I am assuming that is where he goes

At what point is it fair to ask Provy to be the main guy and carry his pair? At some point when does he step up instead of him needing a great partner? This assumes he is the stud many believe. Maybe he just isn't that guy which is fine as he is a damn good dman.
- hello it's me 2050

pretty sure he isnt the guy, but still good. But flyers fans have been touting provy and sandheim since they were drafted. They arent who most made them out to be. I remember the majority said they were both untouchable. Id trade either.

I largely agree. Not so much rotten as not good enough...
- PT21

It is both imo. Funny thing is Captain Comfortable and ex selke could absently help a contending team in a huge way. Moving both moves this team forward.

pretty sure he isnt the guy, but still good. But flyers fans have been touting provy and sandheim since they were drafted. They arent who most made them out to be. I remember the majority said they were both untouchable. Id trade either.
- bradster

If Provorov played for a different team and didn't have to be the team's best defenseman since he was 19 and carry the load. Brought along more gradually and played on a stronger team with a stronger support system. He would be the young defenseman Flyers fans would be drooling over and saying we needed.

You tend to toggle back and forth from statistical evidence to anecdotal evidence depending on what suits your premise. Cooper's statement was that there were times when they were the "greatest show on ice" The fact remains that when they lost to Columbus in 18/19, they were a top 10 NHL team in GA/GP



Every team makes additions to their team after a season. Note that even though they won the Cup in 19/20, they still made some personnel changes. The core of their team did not change. They did not change their style of play.



They didn't make changes in style of play. They simply got better. Losing in the first round to Columbus isn't exactly performance. The point that you overlook here and what Tomahawk made is that they didn't panic after that first round loss. They absolutely "stuck to their guns" and stayed the course that they had been on. This point applies to the Flyers in that even though they had a really poor season last year, the best course of action is not to drastically change but to tweak and see what happens with the young core and who they can add in the draft in the future. Add a key piece if a deal makes sense but don't abandon the draft and develop process in order to hastily try and escalate the team's growth. That is the point that you missed.
- MJL

In 2 more years they will be ready. Will you also still use the "young" mantra? At what point are they not young? How many seasons have Ivan Sanheim TK Scotty Stare Hagg and others have under their belt? Hart Farabee and myers ot an extent only real young players.

every team drafts and develops. You make it sound like it is this rare approach.