Here is exactly what you said

"Two years ago, we did this same exact thing but got Niskanen and Braun"

Trading an older player in exchange for another older player is not the same thing as trading a 1st, 2nd and an NHL asset for a player. That's the facts. If you think it is the same thing then you're simply wrong.
- MJL

No here is exactly what I said you cornball.

Two years ago, we did this same exact thing but got Niskanen and Braun. I'd much rather be giving up assets to get players like Ellis and Risto.

I'll never respond to one of your posts again. You can half read other peoples posts and enjoy your silly debates in semantics.

If Risto walks, then essentially combined with the Ghost trade, you gave up Hagg and those picks for $10m in cap space next season.

I like having picks, but I guess that’s some sort of consolation
- Hesh_

THANK YOU.

Trades aren't black and white.

The Lighting gave up a 1st round pick for Barclay Goodrow. Overpayment? Yes. They traded him away for a 7th round pick. Underpayment? Yes.

They won two cups in between these trades so they don't really care.

No here is exactly what I said you cornball.



I'll never respond to one of your posts again. You can half read other peoples posts and enjoy your silly debates in semantics.
- mochoson

No matter how many times you post it, the Niskanen trade will never be the same thing as the Ristolainen trade. They did not give up any part of the future to acquire Niskanen.

THANK YOU.

Trades aren't black and white.

The Lighting gave up a 1st round pick for Barclay Goodrow. Overpayment? Yes. They traded him away for a 7th round pick. Underpayment? Yes.

They won two cups in between these trades so they don't really care.
- mochoson

Well when we win the Cup, then things change don't they? How realistic is that?

THANK YOU.

Trades aren't black and white.

The Lighting gave up a 1st round pick for Barclay Goodrow. Overpayment? Yes. They traded him away for a 7th round pick. Underpayment? Yes.

They won two cups in between these trades so they don't really care.
- mochoson

I see what you're saying, definitely an overpayment for Goodrow but Tampa Bay was a legitimate top contender for the Stanley Cup. Tampa was fine tuning their stacked roster. The Flyers are a bubble team.

At this point I think the best we could expect is definitely a backup goalie and possibly a veteran depth forward/center.

Except for what we gave up to get RR, Im pretty happy with what Fletch has done so far. Two top 4 D and a scoring winger is pretty good for the current team.

I just worry that if we don't resign RR, we gave up a first round pick, 2nd round, and roster player for a one year rental. That would be insane.
- MBFlyerfan

I think they need and will get more than just a typical backup. I believe they will bring in a vet to compete with Hart based on the moves they have made.

Also see a 4th line center and depth dman.

If Risto gets a deal, is Sanheim gone?

That would be 4 hefty contracts on the blue line.

Not sure if both Sanheim or Risto is here in 12 months
- Hesh_

To me Sanheim hasn't proven much at the NHL level yet. He shot up the draft rankings out of practically nowhere and the Flyers took a chance on him. This is a big year for Sanheim. Hopefully he's been hitting the weights hard over the summer. I want to see some major improvements from him this season. I'm open to moving him if he's not developing.

I think they need and will get more than just a typical backup. I believe they will bring in a vet to compete with Hart based on the moves they have made.

Also see a 4th line center and depth dman.
- hello it's me 2050

What are your thoughts on Jaroslav Halak, Luke Glendening or Nick Foligno?

I think they need and will get more than just a typical backup. I believe they will bring in a vet to compete with Hart based on the moves they have made.

Also see a 4th line center and depth dman.
- hello it's me 2050

I think that they will bring in a solid backup but give Hart every chance to regain his confidence and the net. I think Fletch alluded to this as well. I don't see this as being a 1a 1b scenario.

I have been reading a lot of chatter (not necessarily on here) from fans basically saying they don't think Hart will recover and be our starter. I really think they need to give him a long leash to regain his form. One thing to note, is that while last year was terrible, historically he's been very good going back to junior and the beginning of his NHL career. He's still very young. I see this as a confidence issue, and with better team support around him, I expect him to excel once again.

I remember clearly that Price went through some of the same struggles early in his career and people tend to forget them because he became one of the best ever. In 2010, many Habs fans were clamoring to trade him and run with Halak and were mad when he was dealt. Price was the better technical goalie and the team could see this. He just needed more seasoning which I believe is the same for Hart. He is one of the better technical goalies I've seen and I think we really have to allow him to grow with the team.

While we're in win now mode, and I can see why some may see that getting an established vet starter might be the best play, the most critical piece is the tender, and I still think Hart is able to get us there if the team supports him properly.

Hart ... I expect him to excel once again.


- Hextall271

Same. Not concerned about it at all, actually.

Same. Not concerned about it at all, actually.
- Scoob

Get a good backup and say Carter, it's your net.

I just have visions of us throwing another young tender under the bus a la Bob haha

We're very quick to turn on goalies..

I see what you're saying, definitely an overpayment for Goodrow but Tampa Bay was a legitimate top contender for the Stanley Cup. Tampa was fine tuning their stacked roster. The Flyers are a bubble team.
- dubc55

Flyers finished dead last in 06 and went to the conference finals the very next year.

The Flyers might not have a "stacked" roster, but they have most of the pieces (on paper) that you need to be a contender. They're much more than a "bubble team" IMO and I'm sure Fletcher thinks the same.

I get what you're trying to say though.

What are your thoughts on Jaroslav Halak, Luke Glendening or Nick Foligno?
- dubc55

Yes - no - yes. Wonder if Atkinson is tight enough with Nick to see if he'd do a discount deal for being on a better team.

I know people worry about his health but if Bishop gets bought out, id run him through physicals and doctors to see if he could hold up to a 35-40% load.

What are your thoughts on Jaroslav Halak, Luke Glendening or Nick Foligno?
- dubc55

I try to get better than Halak. I just dont know how they can go into the season with out a viable other option in goal.

Both those others will likely be out of their price range imo.

No matter how many times you post it, the Niskanen trade will never be the same thing as the Ristolainen trade. They did not give up any part of the future to acquire Niskanen.
- MJL

Agreed, but how many years do we have to keep looking towards the future. Its all I hear around here, the future, the future! This team cannot keep hording picks and drafting players and then crossing their fingers and hoping they got their version of Brayden Point in 3 years. At some point the GM has to decide to trade the future for players that can win now. And if any draft was built for that, it was this 2021 draft where there is so much uncertainty. I still maintain the Flyers did not give up a lot for RR and that in the end RR will be well worth the price paid for him. He checks all the boxes that this team needs, size, grit, toughness, skating ability, wins battles below the red line and strong slot coverage. RR is everything the 2020 Flyers defense was not, and no matter how many draft picks or prospects the Flyers have, the only way to fix this was to look outside the organization and bring in good players. We'll see how this season shapes up.

Get a good backup and say Carter, it's your net.

I just have visions of us throwing another young tender under the bus a la Bob haha

We're very quick to turn on goalies..
- Hextall271

I can easily see whoever they bring in AV going to that player if Hart doesn't take complete control of the starts job. AV has to realize he isn't on the longest of leashes at this point. He will be playing to "win" not pamper Hart.

Will also be interesting to see if Hart ends up on a 1 year deal how does he handle that mentally? the pressure will be on.

interesting article on Risto
https://hwhockey.net/defe...en-against-the-analytics/
- bradster

Read this article this morning, thanks for sharing! It was very insightful, and I hope PT21 reads it. However the best part may have been the last part, which mirrored exactly what I posted yesterday in response to PT21.

A lot of responses to some of these arguments have been “we will just have to wait and see”. But why can’t that be the case for everything? Why crush this guy with analytics before he’s placed in a new situation? Place Ristolainen in a new situation. Give him a chance. Don’t believe everything you read. Be happy. Smile. Voracek is gone. The Flyers are becoming competitive again and it’s a beautiful thing to take in. Let’s go Flyers.

Flyers finished dead last in 06 and went to the conference finals the very next year.

The Flyers might not have a "stacked" roster, but they have most of the pieces (on paper) that you need to be a contender. They're much more than a "bubble team" IMO and I'm sure Fletcher thinks the same.

I get what you're trying to say though.
- mochoson

Here's the way I am seeing this. When's the last time we traded our first? 2010 for Pronger? So it's not like we've been pissing away picks forever. We have generally sought to build the core through the draft and have some very good pieces. TK, Provy, Hart Bee, Sanheim, York Foerster and more. Fletch didn't empty the cupboard. He sent out the 13 in a weak draft where we couldn't scout much. Myers hurts but you have to give to get. No free rides in the show.

We've got that core. Are they good enough to contend? I don't know. Two years ago I'd say they were on the way. Last year. Not even close.

What can't happen is that we don't support those key pieces properly with vets so that they can build confidence, learn and be properly led. Set them up for success so that they are more likely to reach that potential. For good measure, we sent out one of the core guys in a great value trade to change chemistry and hoping to stop the decade long trend of slow starts/not showing up/terrible PK.

I'll wait til after UFA, but so far I see the logic. It may not be go time yet like Hexy used to say, but we also cannot go down a path that the youthful core is led to slaughter. We most certainly have nor gutted the prospects/picks youth that we spent 7 years accumulating, but I think we're doing the right thing.

Yes - no - yes. Wonder if Atkinson is tight enough with Nick to see if he'd do a discount deal for being on a better team.

I know people worry about his health but if Bishop gets bought out, id run him through physicals and doctors to see if he could hold up to a 35-40% load.
- juiced

I don't want Halak, he's too old now and showed when Rask got hurt in the playoffs that he is not a good playoff goalie. I would prefer a goalie that is a little younger, 28-32 years old and has starter experience. The reason is because Fletcher mentioned this season will be tough with the Olympic break causing lots of back to back games, so he expects the backup to get 30-35 games. Thus I want a goalie that can handle that kind workload. We saw with Elliott that he could not handle that workload, i.e. the more he played, the worse he got.

Read this article this morning, thanks for sharing! It was very insightful, and I hope PT21 reads it. However the best part may have been the last part, which mirrored exactly what I posted yesterday in response to PT21.
- jd250

Very good points. If Fletch brings in a quality backup, maybe some smart UFA forward or D depth guys, there's every reason to be optimistic. That and we won't have to play Boston 15 times this year.

What are your thoughts on Jaroslav Halak, Luke Glendening or Nick Foligno?
- dubc55

Halak is a great choice although I think he's more expensive than somebody like Brossoit. We will almost certainly sign Dubnyk.

Glendening is the exact kind of forward I think we need. I think Foligno is likely a little out of our price range but he'd be an interesting piece as well due to his versatility.

I think the 6/7D is more important to spend money on. If we can still sign Foligno or Travis Zajac after signing Dubnyk and someone like Forbort or McCabe then we will have had a stellar off-season.

I will be happy if we end up with Dubnyk, McCabe, and a cheap center like Freddy Gaudreau.

Late to the party…

How do you Flyer fans feel about the cost of all the picks/players going out for Risto & Ellis?

Personally I like both D a lot.
- Nighthawk

Overall - Everybody agrees that the Flyers are in a win now mood. 50/50 split that this is the right approach.

Ellis

I think most really like the Ellis deal but some have reservations about the term length into his mid 30’s. A mix on what they gave up in Patrick and Myers (more so in Myers) as they could develop. No debate on Ellis improving the team. He is a needle mover. The AAV for a top end right hand defender is great but some concerns on his health and if he can hold up over the term of his deal. But all in all this is a great pick up

The Ghost move

Most not happy that they had to throw in pieces just to get a taker but all understand the value of the cap dump and guess correctly that it was going to be used for another sizable move. Most said to see Ghost gone but knew he wasn’t fitting in with the defensive plans at that cap hit.

Ristolainen

This is the most polarizing move so far. Most hated the deal. Shocked at how much they had to give to get him. Some not so worried about the high draft picks given calling this draft a crap shoot. Hagg was a piece that most didn’t cheer or hate but understood it to be a little dump in cap to take on the 5.4 cap hit of Ristolainen. He is a 50/50 split on those that think he is a terrible hockey player and those who think he is a hockey player that fell victim to a bad team and was asked to do to much. This one was debated heavily. Not many loved it. Most either were willing to see it play out or hated it.

Jake for Cam trade

Most surprised that no salary was held. Some just happy to get rid of Jake as he was pinned to be an issue with bad culture in the Flyers. Everybody agrees he is a better point producer but most think Cam is a better fit on what this team needs more of (grit, hustle, PK skills, and a shoot first mentality. I think most were okay with the cap dump with the longer term. Most felt this was a win win situation.

Few doubt that the team is better now then it was a week ago. Most are happy that Chuck is making moves and not doing the same old same old players. All day this has been an exciting week for Flyer fans whether your happy or not.

I think that they will bring in a solid backup but give Hart every chance to regain his confidence and the net. I think Fletch alluded to this as well. I don't see this as being a 1a 1b scenario.

I have been reading a lot of chatter (not necessarily on here) from fans basically saying they don't think Hart will recover and be our starter. I really think they need to give him a long leash to regain his form. One thing to note, is that while last year was terrible, historically he's been very good going back to junior and the beginning of his NHL career. He's still very young. I see this as a confidence issue, and with better team support around him, I expect him to excel once again.

I remember clearly that Price went through some of the same struggles early in his career and people tend to forget them because he became one of the best ever. In 2010, many Habs fans were clamoring to trade him and run with Halak and were mad when he was dealt. Price was the better technical goalie and the team could see this. He just needed more seasoning which I believe is the same for Hart. He is one of the better technical goalies I've seen and I think we really have to allow him to grow with the team.

While we're in win now mode, and I can see why some may see that getting an established vet starter might be the best play, the most critical piece is the tender, and I still think Hart is able to get us there if the team supports him properly.
- Hextall271

Nice assessment of the situation.

Flyers finished dead last in 06 and went to the conference finals the very next year.

The Flyers might not have a "stacked" roster, but they have most of the pieces (on paper) that you need to be a contender. They're much more than a "bubble team" IMO and I'm sure Fletcher thinks the same.

I get what you're trying to say though.
- mochoson

I agree. They are more than a bubble team for sure. They are a playoff competitor. A few more tweaks and, as some on here stress, the young guys need to get their form back and take a step and we could see this team compete for a cup.

Okay, now I can take my orange and black googles off.

Here's the way I am seeing this. When's the last time we traded our first? 2010 for Pronger? So it's not like we've been pissing away picks forever. We have generally sought to build the core through the draft and have some very good pieces. TK, Provy, Hart Bee, Sanheim, York Foerster and more. Fletch didn't empty the cupboard. He sent out the 13 in a weak draft where we couldn't scout much. Myers hurts but you have to give to get. No free rides in the show.
- Hextall271

Great context. Exactly the point I've been trying to make.

I'll wait til after UFA, but so far I see the logic. It may not be go time yet like Hexy used to say, but we also cannot go down a path that the youthful core is led to slaughter. We most certainly have nor gutted the prospects/picks youth that we spent 7 years accumulating, but I think we're doing the right thing.

Again, great context. I mean, we traded a 2nd and 3rd round pick for Justin Braun. I have literally zero problem trading a 1st and 2nd for Ristolainen even if's only for a year.

We of course ended up resigning Braun so that investment feels worth it in a way. However, Braun took a pay cut from his previous contract to stay here (I don't think he gets much more $ in FA). I mention this because we won't have this luxury with Risto even if he is only "ok this season". His next deal will be north of 6 million no matter what.

You make a great point. Flyers drafted well and stocked players for several years. We ultimately won't miss the first we traded this year.