That chart was play against "elite competition," not TOI overall.

I mean, all I did was say so, in my blurb, and in the chart. Of course you would miss it.

I don't particularly want to argue with guys like you, whose logic largely consists of "this is the way I see it and it is correct because this is the way I see it," but for others a little less dogmatic and little more keen-sighted, the entire point of that chart was that while Risto has played the most against elite competition, others have not played as poorly as he did when they did so, not even close.

To answer why he has played more mins while playing poorly: there are several explanations: Bad coaching. Line matchups. That the numbers don't reflect underlying play, and so on.


- PT21

In that chart, Ristolainen played the most "elite" minutes. The poster is correct. How could you miss that?

What’s the 3C status look like right now? I’m assuming it’s Frost but with both him and Hayes coming off major injuries and not a lot of depth behind them center depth is about the biggest concern I have for the roster right now.
- hereticpride

Frost or Laughton I would say. No way I want Frost on a fourth line role. To me if Frost is consistent in the preseason then he gets slowed into that 3C. Laughton is versatile right now he can be slotted on a wing or slip to the 4th line center role. There’s other options for sure but that is what I see as two probabilities.

Frost or Laughton I would say. No way I want Frost on a fourth line role. To me if Frost is consistent in the preseason then he gets slowed into that 3C. Laughton is versatile right now he can be slotted on a wing or slip to the 4th line center role. There’s other options for sure but that is what I see as two probabilities.
- peesinwind

I would not be averse to instead of forming a traditional 4th line that they form a youthful energy line that is more offensive. Of course there are issues with that to consider.

If the flyers are even sniffing the playoffs Risto will not be traded.
- hello it's me 2050

That all depends on how he is working out on the Flyers, whether they can agree on an extension and how others are playing/injuries.

Is there a scenario where he could get traded even if they are in the playoff hunt, no question yes. If they are battling for a playoff spot, most likely he would be extended already.

That all depends on how he is working out on the Flyers, whether they can agree on an extension and how others are playing/injuries.

Is there a scenario where he could get traded even if they are in the playoff hunt, no question yes. If they are battling for a playoff spot, most likely he would be extended already.
- Glak18

If he is playing in a top 4 role and the Flyers are in a legit playoff hunt, it is highly unlikely they would trade him.

Frost or Laughton I would say. No way I want Frost on a fourth line role. To me if Frost is consistent in the preseason then he gets slowed into that 3C. Laughton is versatile right now he can be slotted on a wing or slip to the 4th line center role. There’s other options for sure but that is what I see as two probabilities.
- peesinwind

I have no doubt they sign a vet 4th line center. Paying over 3 million for a 4th line center wouldnt be smart imo.

The problem is that you aren't open minded and aren't open to the possibility that Ristolianen's numbers weren't dragged down due to the team he played on. You refuse to accept that the numbers aren't individual player numbers. They're team numbers.

If the numbers we have available to us as fans, were so good, teams wouldn't need to spend money on an analytics department. Why do you think they do?
- MJL

So I’ll add this. In my view there are a lot of intangible chemistry issues in hockey. That’s why you’ll sometimes see teams overachieve like Montreal that outplay Vegas. Clearly many teams think that RR can be valuable if properly deployed if there were several offers for him. The stats don’t tell the whole story.

Sorry, I 1000% disagree with you on that latter point. CF just created a real window for this team to compete for the cup, similar to what Homer did back in 2007. I don't understand what he gave up that you think would damage their path to being a true contender?? What .. Myers? Hagg? The 13th pick?? Really?

CF just got rid of our worst players and replaced them with really good hockey players that can play for this team at a high level for another 3-5 years. That is the definition of a path to the Cup!
- jd250

Sorry this team is not built to contend for the CUP..they are built to be improved and to get in the playoffs, which they do every other year anyway. Myers 2 yrs ago was a guy you wouldnt have traded he had a great year. Hagg is a solid physical 3d pair guy, 13th and 2nd round pick who knows. . People keep saying they got rid of their 3 worst players from last year which just isnt true. Hart and Hayes were their 2 worst players last year why dont we give them away also. Fletch did what he was mandated to do and I like the locker room change which was long overdue.

That all depends on how he is working out on the Flyers, whether they can agree on an extension and how others are playing/injuries.

Is there a scenario where he could get traded even if they are in the playoff hunt, no question yes. If they are battling for a playoff spot, most likely he would be extended already.
- Glak18

Is it possible they trade him in in the hunt? Sure. It is also very highly unlikely.

No idea about the ext. They may try now or wait. Can go either way.

If they dont resign him Flyers will be lucky to get a 2nd for him. Nowhere near what they paid for him. He isnt going to take a pay cut to stay here no matter how he plays. Will be north of 6M for sure.
- hfc355

Since other teams were willing to give a 1st for him already, but when the TDL approaches where teams are desperate for help to make the playoffs, depth and cap space starts to become less crucial due to prorated cap hits...that's when teams start to lowball. You're right teams always pay nothing for rentals....

Gave up 4 roster players and replaced them with 3. It really crushed the future. Closed the window some. Another example of overvaluing draft picks.
- hello it's me 2050

I don’t understand this post. Are you saying that we crushed the future by trading one first after about 7 years of stockpiling picks? If you’re mad about trading picks doesn’t that mean we’re undervaluing picks?

If he is playing in a top 4 role and the Flyers are in a legit playoff hunt, it is highly unlikely they would trade him.
- MJL

I didn't say they will trade him, but if he is not extended it is very much a possibility.

Here you go again over valuing them again. Equal chance getting the next Rubstov, Labarge, or ginning or an nh player. Love "potential".
- hello it's me 2050

you spelled Patrick wrong lol

So I’ll add this. In my view there are a lot of intangible chemistry issues in hockey. That’s why you’ll sometimes see teams overachieve like Montreal that outplay Vegas. Clearly many teams think that RR can be valuable if properly deployed if there were several offers for him. The stats don’t tell the whole story.
- Hextall271

In response to the first issue you quoted, a good player's relative stats, which is what we are talking about, don't actually get dragged down when playing on a bad team. They tend to rise. This is what I said in my original post, and provided the reasoning why by way of example (So, the fact that Risto's possession stats are bad can be explained by poor teammates. The fact that he drags the possession stats of his teammates down cannot). Hope I was clear about the distinction.

In response to "magic" etc, often when people talk about such intangibles, there is a stat that can capture it if you look deeply enough. In this case, Montreal had actually extremely good stats. Look where they are:

(EDIT: arrange teams by Fenwick and you will see they are 3rd)

I don’t understand this post. Are you saying that we crushed the future by trading one first after about 7 years of stockpiling picks? If you’re mad about trading picks doesn’t that mean we’re undervaluing picks?
- Hextall271

No making fun of all the peeps who like to hoard pick and always say they are just 2 years away.

It’s possible that playing in that losing atmosphere that he’s tried to do too much. Go for the big hit instead of playing position etc. I think that aspect can be taught. Take the hit when it’s there but don’t run around like crazy. It’s a balance for sure but as dmen mature they tend to play a smarter game. If he can be physical and smart, then he can prob be effective.
- Hextall271

Certainly possible, certainly possible. I completely agree. And what Bill said about the scouts and the offers are also very relevant.

But all I am saying is this: if the guy is good, it sure as hell doesn't show up in his stats (the bad team effect doesn't come close to explaining it).

Frost, Laughton, Tanner.....would have been nice to have Noah C in the mix but alas.

Also very viable option is Claude drops to 3C and we redeploy the LW's
- juiced

Noah Cates continues to fly under the radar. I have been high on this kid as a 4th line center kind of guy. He opted for another year of college and understandable. Not his best season last year. Still think he will need a couple years of pro hockey at the AHL but has great tools for that role. Higher value then his brother in my eyes.

No making fun of all the peeps who like to hoard pick and always say they are just 2 years away.
- hello it's me 2050

Gotcha. I thought it might be that.

I’m in favour of building through the draft to a point but eventually you have to move forward and supplement the young guys you bring in or you end up like Buffalo or Edmonton where the kids get used to losing and it becomes the culture.

Bernier
Halak
Reimer
Brossoit
Dubnyk

So I know we're going to end up with Dubnyk but if I had my choice from this list, I want Brossoit.

In response to the first issue you quoted, a good player's relative stats, which is what we are talking about, don't actually get dragged down when playing on a bad team. They tend to rise. This is what I said in my original post, and provided the reasoning why by way of example (So, the fact that Risto's possession stats are bad can be explained by poor teammates. The fact that he drags the possession stats of his teammates down cannot). Hope I was clear about the distinction.

In response to "magic" etc, often when people talk about such intangibles, there is a stat that can capture it if you look deeply enough. In this case, Montreal had actually extremely good stats. Look where they are:

(EDIT: arrange teams by Fenwick and you will see they are 3rd)
- PT21

If Risto is playing against lesser competition with better line mates, why is it impossible for his stats to improve?

Certainly possible, certainly possible. I completely agree. And what Bill said about the scouts and the offers are also very relevant.

But all I am saying is this: if the guy is good, it sure as hell doesn't show up in his stats (the bad team effect doesn't come close to explaining it).
- PT21

You may end up being right. That’s the gamble here.

Bernier
Halak
Reimer
Brossoit
Dubnyk

So I know we're going to end up with Dubnyk but if I had my choice from this list, I want Brossoit.
- mochoson

Pretty much the exact list I have. Would like a signing between 1.5-2.5m at most.

Dubnyk (35)
Raanta (32)
Reimer (33)
Bernier (32)
Rittich (28)
Halák (36)
Brossoit (28)

[Outside the price range for Flyers]

Grubauer (29)
Andersen (31)
Ulmark (27)

Would also like a depth defenseman signing like Hakanpää (RHD) (29).

Did you guys notice that G called out Sam on Twitter about his confirming that G would remain captain?

Sam responded. Wow. There’s certainly animosity between some members of the press and some of the team.

Did you guys notice that G called out Sam on Twitter about his confirming that G would remain captain?

Sam responded. Wow. There’s certainly animosity between some members of the press and some of the team.
- Hextall271

Any links?

I found it..."Good scoop Sam, good scoop"

Gotcha. I thought it might be that.

I’m in favour of building through the draft to a point but eventually you have to move forward and supplement the young guys you bring in or you end up like Buffalo or Edmonton where the kids get used to losing and it becomes the culture.
- Hextall271

i believe the culture can change now with these moves and some of the younger guys. Even Chuck brought it up. Hence the "cant keep bringing back the same guys and expecting the same results....also mentioned the consistant slow starts. Hopefully this works. Hopefully we can get to the playoffs, judge how the team did with these changes. Couple minor adjustments next year after evaluating this year, and keep progressing