It seems that all your efforts of the past 3 months going through draft rankings to pre-select the best players for Ottawa was a big waste of time.
Given the limited viewings, it is no surprise to see greater divergence between draft rankings lists and draft selections, especially from round 2 onwards.
As for Ty Boucher, he does seem to have good speed/skill to go with the pure nastiness. I'd have to think that the New York Rangers would have selected him at 15th overall, given their excessive team softness which was exposed by a lack of response in the Tom Wilson incident.
- SensFan25

Drafting a hard nosed player is a response to a current player incident? Like when Montreal drafted Michael McCarron in the first round in 2013 in response to Milan Lucic pushing them around to only see Lucic move teams 2 years later?

Tom Wilson will probably have played himself out of the league by the time Boucher is ready for full time duties. If the plans were to pick Boucher purely for the player value, than that is a fair point, but we probably will never know.

Good perspective.

Great scouts look at the strengths and weaknesses of a young prospect's game. They then set about deciding if they can take the best of what he does and develop him so he can execute at that level every shift. They look at the worst and determine if it is a fixable error. Great scouts don't look at what you are playing against other kids. They need to project what you can be playing against hardened professionals.

Amateur evaluators get seduced into loving flash, creativity and offensive production. But there are only a few in every draft that can bring this to the NHL level. Can a kid be developed to play an NHL game is far more complex than a simple assumption that your USHL scoring numbers are the best indicators of your probability of success.
- spatso

Come on, man. Other scouts and basically anyone with half a brain understand the basic concept that you can't just look at points, and that certain skill sets are more transferable to the NHL than others. What other scouts seem to understand, however, is that in 2021, drafting a guy for no reason other than his hitting isn't worth a #10 overall pick. Case in point, the amateur writer that you claim has "good perspective" in this scouting report didn't actually have Boucher ranked in the top-32 of his rankings. But he sure was right that some dinosaur GM would bite on the whole 'big body' thing... though even he thought it would be nowhere near #10.

"It wouldn’t come as an overly large surprise to see a team take a bit of a reach on Boucher, perhaps as early as the middle of the second round. "
https://smahtscouting.com...ing-report-tyler-boucher/

That means if the Senators had picked him at #39 or #42, he would have considered it a reach. Did you miss that part in your "good perspective" assessment? Because it's kind of the whole point.

It seems that all your efforts of the past 3 months going through draft rankings to pre-select the best players for Ottawa was a big waste of time.
Given the limited viewings, it is no surprise to see greater divergence between draft rankings lists and draft selections, especially from round 2 onwards.
As for Ty Boucher, he does seem to have good speed/skill to go with the pure nastiness. I'd have to think that the New York Rangers would have selected him at 15th overall, given their excessive team softness which was exposed by a lack of response in the Tom Wilson incident.
- SensFan25

Well, I waste time on any number of exercises, and would happily go through the draft rankings and scouting reports either way - just fun to speculate, even though I know I'll be wrong most of the time. But I think you're wrong about the Rangers - as has been noted, it's complete idiocy to draft in reaction to a specific event, given that Tyler Boucher will need at least 3-4 years in the NCAA/AHL before he even sees an NHL game. By then you'll probably be wondering - hey, why don't we have any decent young top-6 scoring forwards coming into the lineup?

Don't get me wrong, I'm already hoping that Tyler Boucher exceeds expectations, and proves to be the legitimate power forward that the Senators believe he could be. I'll be geeking out about his Boston University progression as much as anyone, and hopefully he cracks the WJC roster. I just felt there were several other positions that were in much greater need of attention than our team toughness, and that throwing picks around like this was a luxury they didn't really have.

Florida got Reinhardt for a very good price. Ottawa could have easily matched or bettered the Florida offer. Reinhardt has already signalled that he wants to sign a long term deal and the language from his camp sounds reasonable.

Wonder if Dorion held back from going all in. Does he remain on the edges looking to jump in on one of the larger fishes that are still being floated.

Ottawa, Anahiem, LA, Columbus...perhaps Montreal have the cap space and assets to do a deal for Eichel. We hear that the two teams leading the charge are Minnesota and Rangers. But, let's be realistic, Minnesota is dead in the water. They do not have sufficient cap space beyond next year to accommodate an Eichel contract. The buy outs of Suter and Parise were not helpful. The Rangers, on the other hand, have some nice pieces but they are not prepared to offer up any elite pieces.

I am not a fan of Sens chasing Eichel. Would be more content with a solid veteran presence like Monaghan or Henrique at a more modest cost.
- spatso

THERE'S NO D IN REINHART

I'm not sold Ottawa needs a D. It seems like we are in the pre-Stepan era of last season - don't repeat that FA blunder.

Im not sold on the "needing a center" thing.

Needing a D....what has to happen is for Chabbot to play less minutes. That's what has to happen. I questioned a lot of how DJ deployed his troops last year. It was a down year. A year for mistakes, fan understanding and learning. Nope. Lets lean on badly scouted veterans who came in and pooped the bed. Lets run TC out there for 30+ minutes a night. Lets not play the kids until the last 20 games of the season when it didn't matter at all and claimed they all grew and matured. I like their D corps as it is. Play them the proper minutes.

And for the people still pooping on the draft choices this year. Go back and find out where Bergeron, Johnny Hockey, Pageau were all drafted.(just to name a couple) Then ask, were they a reach that year? Would the talking heads have reacted the same if they were picked higher where it now appears like they should have?

Drafting a hard nosed player is a response to a current player incident? Like when Montreal drafted Michael McCarron in the first round in 2013 in response to Milan Lucic pushing them around to only see Lucic move teams 2 years later?

Tom Wilson will probably have played himself out of the league by the time Boucher is ready for full time duties. If the plans were to pick Boucher purely for the player value, than that is a fair point, but we probably will never know.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

The Rangers got rid of their coach and GM after the incident. Given the high level of skill that Gorton had assembled within the Rangers player/prospects ranks, the firing would appear to be an indictment of the nature of the team that was built.

While Ty Boucher would be a useful grinder on the fourth line, I would expect that the team is looking for him to be a Lucic (early career) type of presence on a scoring line. At a minimum, he will make opposing defencemen more cautious/skittish going into the corners, and would help wear down defencemen in a playoff series.

I was surprised by the pick but I hope it works out. The scouting staff under Trent Mann has had a very solid record since he took over in 2017 so I'm optimistic.

Edited quotes make for great headlines in July. It's their 24hr job 365 days a year to evaluate. Perhaps ps4 says otherwise.

I'm not sold Ottawa needs a D. It seems like we are in the pre-Stepan era of last season - don't repeat that FA blunder.
- Bartacus

Will Jacob Bernard Docker need to spend time in Belleville, or will he be NHL ready. That would have a big impact here.

There was a good comment on the TEAM1200 today that despite fans' concerns regarding Boucher pick, the team isn't picking a guy like him if they project him on the 4th line. So the team clearly feels he has what it takes to be a real contributor. Other's have pointed out this is a bit of a recurring pattern with this fanbase (Tkachuk, Pinto), and it will be a while before we really have any idea about this draft.


Obviously we all focus on the Sens more than any other team, but was any other team scrutinized to the same degree as Dorion, for the same reasons? Did any others go "off the board" to the same degree, or did they all keep in line with what the analysts were saying.

There was a good comment on the TEAM1200 today that despite fans' concerns regarding Boucher pick, the team isn't picking a guy like him if they project him on the 4th line. So the team clearly feels he has what it takes to be a real contributor. Other's have pointed out this is a bit of a recurring pattern with this fanbase (Tkachuk, Pinto), and it will be a while before we really have any idea about this draft.


Obviously we all focus on the Sens more than any other team, but was any other team scrutinized to the same degree as Dorion, for the same reasons? Did any others go "off the board" to the same degree, or did they all keep in line with what the analysts were saying.
- david22

Well said!

Either Dorion and his staff are very good at the drafting game or they are very, very lucky.

Same guys who said Dorion crapped the bed on Tkachuk and Pinto are first in line to say it would have been easy for the Sens to trade down and get Boucher in the second round. Trent Mann called B.S.

Time for everyone to move on and we can talk about the fruits of this draft next year at this time.

Obviously we all focus on the Sens more than any other team, but was any other team scrutinized to the same degree as Dorion, for the same reasons? Did any others go "off the board" to the same degree, or did they all keep in line with what the analysts were saying.
- david22

No, in fact there really weren't any other teams going off the board to anywhere near the same degree... except for Montreal, which is quite a different thing. But what does that matter, right? The other NHL teams, the media, casual fans, and virtually every prospect site worth talking about are all nothing but a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Only Dorion and Mann were visionary enough to make such an amazing pick, so don't even bother trying to decide for yourself whether it was a good draft weekend. Your objective and independently constructed opinion isn't welcome in these parts.

I trust people will be just as herd-like when Dorion starts signing/trading players?


EDIT: More idiots here... even one who somehow managed to believe the Senators did quite well last year, but didn't do well this year... without their head exploding. Quick, someone tell them about how the Senators once drafted a really good player in the 6th round about a decade back.

"The Athletic’s national prospect reporter Scott Wheeler ranked Ottawa as the overall losers of the draft, going so far as to say “I’d be surprised if the Senators get a single NHLer out of their five Saturday choices”. Corey Pronman, also of The Athletic, assigned the Senators a ‘D’ grade, after giving them an ‘A’ last season."
https://www.silversevense...1-tyler-boucher-ben-roger

No, in fact there really weren't any other teams going off the board to anywhere near the same degree... except for Montreal, which is quite a different thing. But what does that matter, right? The other NHL teams, the media, casual fans, and virtually every prospect site worth talking about are all nothing but a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Only Dorion and Mann were visionary enough to make such an amazing pick, so don't even bother trying to decide for yourself whether it was a good draft weekend. Your objective and independently constructed opinion isn't welcome in these parts.

I trust people will be just as herd-like when Dorion starts signing/trading players?


EDIT: More idiots here... even one who somehow managed to believe the Senators did quite well last year, but didn't do well this year... without their head exploding. Quick, someone tell them about how the Senators once drafted a really good player in the 6th round about a decade back.

"The Athletic’s national prospect reporter Scott Wheeler ranked Ottawa as the overall losers of the draft, going so far as to say “I’d be surprised if the Senators get a single NHLer out of their five Saturday choices”. Corey Pronman, also of The Athletic, assigned the Senators a ‘D’ grade, after giving them an ‘A’ last season."
https://www.silversevense...1-tyler-boucher-ben-roger
- khawk

That was a rare good read from SilverSevens.

Acknowledges the simple fact that Trent Mann and the rest of the Ottawa Senators scouting staff has no interest in the opinions offered up by the media and part time amateur scouting fraternity.

The only reason why this is an issue today is because far and away the majority of Sens fans trust Dorion and Mann and have little interest in the comments from the peanut gallery.

No, in fact there really weren't any other teams going off the board to anywhere near the same degree... except for Montreal, which is quite a different thing. But what does that matter, right? The other NHL teams, the media, casual fans, and virtually every prospect site worth talking about are all nothing but a bunch of idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Only Dorion and Mann were visionary enough to make such an amazing pick, so don't even bother trying to decide for yourself whether it was a good draft weekend. Your objective and independently constructed opinion isn't welcome in these parts.

I trust people will be just as herd-like when Dorion starts signing/trading players?


EDIT: More idiots here... even one who somehow managed to believe the Senators did quite well last year, but didn't do well this year... without their head exploding. Quick, someone tell them about how the Senators once drafted a really good player in the 6th round about a decade back.

"The Athletic’s national prospect reporter Scott Wheeler ranked Ottawa as the overall losers of the draft, going so far as to say “I’d be surprised if the Senators get a single NHLer out of their five Saturday choices”. Corey Pronman, also of The Athletic, assigned the Senators a ‘D’ grade, after giving them an ‘A’ last season."
https://www.silversevense...1-tyler-boucher-ben-roger
- khawk

There are a number of analysts who have spent a large amount of time reviewing prospects and produced draft lists. When a team picks players that are significantly lower than their rankings, it is entirely reasonable that they rate a team's draft poorly. That has certainly happened in regards to the Senators picks this year by most analysts. You are also quite unimpressed with the Senators choices. Fair enough.
When Ottawa picked Boucher, I did a WTF and immediately did searches on the player. By taking a player off of the consensus rankings the organization is taking a risk. From what I've read, Boucher has very good skating and has good to very good skill, depending on the report. It may be a reach on the organization's part but if the skill level turns out to be high, he could be a significant difference maker, especially in the playoffs. Time will tell.
Trent Mann picks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ft_picks#2020_Draft_picks
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ft_picks#2019_Draft_picks
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ft_picks#2018_Draft_picks
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ft_picks#2017_Draft_picks
There are a few misses there but also some good selections.

This is a fairly optimistic, but thorough summary of the Senators' picks from the 2021 draft, if you're not familiar with some of the selections.
https://www.silversevense...tors-2021-draft-class-nhl

Interesting that they feel the draft was a reflection of what was missing from their young team... which certainly has nothing to do with BPA. It's also the same rationale for some of their more disastrous player acquisitions last year. Maybe this speaks to a bit of a problem in terms of their assessment? They became an infinitely better team when they start playing their younger, faster, more skilled players, and they still managed to finish 2nd in the league in hits, 4th in blocked shots, and 1st in major penalties (i.e. mostly fights).

The defence situation seems to be in a weird transitional phase. How they proceed depends a lot on how much of an opportunity/push they want to give Bernard-Docker/Thomson right out of training camp, to what extent Zub is locked into a 2nd pairing role with Brannstrom, and whether they'd be willing to play a $4.5M/yr Zaitsev on the 3rd pairing in order to create space for a RHD upgrade. Personally, I don't expect any big splashes here... but there might be a smart add to be had, to upgrade the defensive game, and help the team navigate the youth transition.

If they stick with a RHD, one name I think you might see come up is Jani Hakanpaa, who's a former 4th round pick from St. Louis who quietly just kind of re-emerged from Finland via Anaheim last year, but unexpectedly had the 3rd most hits in the NHL, to go along with 18min/GP of ice time as part of a very good Carolina Hurricanes blueline in the 2nd half of this season. He's a 6'5/220 guy, but has WJC pedigree, and has developed enough of a defensive game to be more than just a bruiser. He turned 29 in March, but even if you have to sign him multi-year, I think he could be effective down to a #6/7 role, as the young D-men develop and take over more prominent roles.

A veteran LHD option that might be worth considering is Alex Edler, who might be willing to play for the kind of term the Senators would ideally want to offer, even if it's for a bit more $$$ than they'd ideally like to pay. His overall play is declining, but he still played 20min/gp last year, had 80 hits, saw nearly 3:30min/gp of SH ice time, and had the 4th most blocked shots in the league. When you consider that Brannstrom prefers the RH side despite being a LHD, there's an interesting potential there for a Brannstrom-Edler 2nd pairing. That would also free up Zub to play alongside Chabot, which could actually be the kind of top-pairing option that would ideally suit a 2yr timeframe.

I trust people will be just as herd-like when Dorion starts signing/trading players?
- khawk

In stead of crying over spilt milk why not just leave it to see how the draft pans out?

If Boucher is a flop, you can let everyone know how smart you are, how stupid Mann and Dorion are and let everyone know that you were right and they were wrong.

If Boucher turns out to be a good addition you can own it, eat a steaming pile of crow and post a wee apology for all to read.

Sound fair?

In stead of crying over spilt milk why not just leave it to see how the draft pans out?
- HoweHatrick

Well, this is an NHL discussion board, and for a rebuilding small-market team the draft is basically the most important event of the year. Not to mention that the team-building mindset that just yielded one of the most bizarre draft performance in recent memory will also be influencing the team's roster decisions for the rest of the off-season. Maybe come back during training camp, if you really don't care about these kinds of things.

Qualifying offers have been extended to all of Tkachuk, Batherson, L. Brown, Abramov, Mete, Alsing, and Gustavsson.
https://www.tsn.ca/ottawa...s-brady-tkachuk-1.1673184

- presumably the QO to Abramov means they'll retain his NHL rights, which could come back into play in a couple of years when his KHL contract is done
- it will be interesting to see if Gustavsson is given a similar deal to what Daccord had signed, which had a 3yr trajectory towards a 1-way contract in the final year
- nice to see Alsing being given at least another year in Belleville, as he looked like a decent depth option in his limited GP
- Mete should probably get something like a 2yr-$2.4M deal, in the same general range as Josh Brown

Maybe come back during training camp, if you really don't care about these kinds of things.
- khawk

OK. Beat the dead horse all you want. Less tears would be nice.

OK. Beat the dead horse all you want. Less tears would be nice.
- HoweHatrick

No tears shed, though the blind faith you and some others apparently have in Dorion is quite something to behold. It kind of falls apart when you start doing some research and critical thinking, but to each their own I guess.

I'm fine with getting a skilled Chris Neil.

No tears shed, though the blind faith you and some others apparently have in Dorion is quite something to behold. It kind of falls apart when you start doing some research and critical thinking, but to each their own I guess.
- khawk

I have made little with respect to comments and simply posted a few comparable and a few links I have found. Not all of the links are even flattering for the Boucher pick. I do remember thinking the Tkachuk pick was not so smart. I was wrong and will certainly admit the same. I have not expressed any blind faith in the pick. Maybe some optimism. I am content to see how the pick pans out.

I am not a professional scout nor a hockey executive. For me to comment / criticize someone with with no expertise of my own would be pretty stupid on my part. I take no issue with discussions on the draft and the direction of the Senators. That is not what is happening here.

Sure, you can read a bunch of pundit articles and rankings produced by "experts" on players who didn't play any hockey last year. Good for you. To think you have more tools, resources, information and insight than Mr. Mann is somewhat amusing. Perhaps critical thinking is not really in your skill set. You might want to "google" that term.

You sound like a spoiled child who didn't get what he wanted for Christmas.

To think you have more tools, resources, information and insight than Mr. Mann is somewhat amusing. Perhaps critical thinking is not really in your skill set. You might want to "google" that term.
- HoweHatrick

Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

Notice how it doesn’t just say take one guy’s opinion as the truth, and stop thinking for yourself? Or that critical thinking is the exclusive domain of the person with the most tools and resources? There’s a ton of subjectivity in scouting hockey players, which is why you need to consider multiple perspectives, and process as much information as possible. And while I’m certainly not an NHL executive, there are 31 other teams doing the exact same thing as Dorion/Mann, and for this year coming up with very different conclusions. So did the vast majority of draft experts, and media pundits. Within that broad consensus there can certainly be variance and outliers, however the selection of Boucher was unquestionably the biggest reach for a #10 pick in at least the past 15 years. So it’s really quite wrong to imply that it’s just another “different” pick by the Senators.

The majority opinion seems to be that the Senators got “their guys” with those 3 early picks, but that was based on a pretty clear bias for adding size/physical play to their prospect pool, and that they left a ton of value on the table in terms of player quality. Even the Senators couldn’t pretend that they’d gone after the best players available, so I don’t know what your problem is. They did what they wanted, and that’s their prerogative. But it’s not like people shouldn’t be open to questioning whether it was the best use of their draft assets, or addressed the most pressing team needs. Personally, I don’t think it was a good draft on either front, and I think they failed to capitalize well enough on a very valuable asset in the #10 overall pick. But I’ll certainly hope that Boucher, Ostapchuk, and Roger prove me wrong in terms of my estimation of their ability.

Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
- khawk

Hey! You googled it. Good for you. And the cut / paste. Not bad!

Critical thinking isn't copying the homework of the kid next to you after he has asked some of his classmates their answers. Let's be honest here. Your exercise in critical thinking is nothing more than that. Your opinion is based on a bunch of lists compiled by pundits and writers who never actually watched much hockey to compile their lists. The funny thing is you accuse people of blindly following Mr. Mann when it is actually you who are the person blindly following some talking heads and their draft lists.

There are amateur fellows on discussion boards who actually did some pre-draft homework and identified Boucher as the player the Senators were going to draft.

Edit: Here you go. I have no idea who this fellow is.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/179123553/

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/179289372/

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/177380153/