The Jackets have signed 11th overall pick Cole Sillinger to an ELC today.

The elite is the part that confuses the issue. You can definitely win without an elite#1 but your chances without a true #1 is remote.

It does get helped immensely when you have 2 Top 5 players playing at their elite levels plus a Top 10 winger in his prime. And a goalie playing out of his mind.

Its possible but aside from an outlier here and there, not probable.
- Elbows15

Agreed and Pittsburgh is the ultimate exception to the rule as they won back to back.

Washington and STL are cases where you need a LOT to go RIGHT to win the cup....exactly why I keep saying STL being in front of the Hawks, with Toews, is no sure thing.....Especially after Binnington and the back up were brutalized most of last year.

Elite vs True?
IGU!
- rpeters01

It always comes back to what are the qualifications of being "elite". These discussions always get tired fast, because no one is on the same page on the definition.

Karlsson (in his prime)?
Burns?
PK Subban?
Suter?

I think if you are building a team, the "elite" defender is great to have but not necessary. What I believe is needed is defensive partners that play well together, within the system and that compliment each other well.

Seabrook was not near elite, but he was outstanding at playing his part/position alongside Keith. If the Hawks can find a way to mix/match the D-pairs, I think it will go much further to making them competitive than trying to draft/sign/trade/develop an "elite" defenseman.

How many weren't drafted by Stanley Cup winners?

The answer is one to each. Chara for Boston and while Carlson is a true #1 D-man, I hesitate to call him elite. He did have a Norris winning season, tho. Maybe I just have a different definition of elite. I think it is earned over multiple seasons. I also bellieve it is possible for a player to have an elite type season without being an elite player.
- Elbows15

Not sure I’d classify Chara as elite? He did some good things but his biggest “skill” was using his physicality and stick to give him lots of room. Teams used to steer clear of him, allowing him to ponderously skate or pass the puck out of his zone. And of course he’d punish anyone who ventured in his corner or in front of the Bruin net. EXCEPT during the 2013 Cup final when the Hawks went against convention, and maybe their physical well being, and decided to go right after Chara. Every puck was dumped into his corner. Sharp, Toews, Hossa, Bickell, Shaw and even Kane worked his corner making Chara turn his back and making him rush his plays. They also engaged him in fron of the Bruin net. In that series Chara looked anything but elite.

You keep saying this about Bowman's 1st round choices and you are wrong every time.

I hate the trade because Jones as rental wasn't worth those assets. He will NEVER be worth the contract. Bowman bid against himself.
- Elbows15

and we have debated this.....only Kane and Ovechkin have been "worth" their deals.

Nature of doing business in the NHL.....only way to secure very good players is LT deals and understanding that on the last 1/3 of them they will be upside down in regards to performance vs cap hit.

At least Bowman has structured Jones so that his actual salary is 2.5 million....5 million signing bonus each of those years that is likely due on start of the league season....think that's usually 7/1. See what happens.

If you break it down by our own division, who's better than Jones?

Josi
Heiskanen
Makar

I think OEL is overrated
I know Elbows think so but Faulk is not better than Seth, neither is Krug or Parayko.

Agreed and Pittsburgh is the ultimate exception to the rule as they won back to back.

Washington and STL are cases where you need a LOT to go RIGHT to win the cup....exactly why I keep saying STL being in front of the Hawks, with Toews, is no sure thing.....Especially after Binnington and the back up were brutalized most of last year.
- SteveRain

And how much of that success is built on the goalie. Binnington specifically, played out of his mind that year (1.89 GAA and 0.927 SV%), and hasn't come near it since.

Not sure I’d classify Chara as elite? He did some good things but his biggest “skill” was using his physicality and stick to give him lots of room. Teams used to steer clear of him, allowing him to ponderously skate or pass the puck out of his zone. And of course he’d punish anyone who ventured in his corner or in front of the Bruin net. EXCEPT during the 2013 Cup final when the Hawks went against convention, and maybe their physical well being, and decided to go right after Chara. Every puck was dumped into his corner. Sharp, Toews, Hossa, Bickell, Shaw and even Kane worked his corner making Chara turn his back and making him rush his plays. They also engaged him in fron of the Bruin net. In that series Chara looked anything but elite.
- paulr

Those Hawks teams made a lot of defensemen look bad....Pronger in 2010 as well. Hedman in 2015.

I think elite gets thrown around way too much and way too quickly in any sport today. There are a lot of VERY good players and some of those can make the HOF, but to me....elite is the "best of the best" cue Top Gun GIF, as they hold the advantage regardless of match-up.

And how much of that success is built on the goalie. Binnington specifically, played out of his mind that year (1.89 GAA and 0.927 SV%), and hasn't come near it since.
- Chunk

Pietro not being there anymore really hurts them

Pietro not being there anymore really hurts them
- BetweenTheDots

I am likely in the minority...but I think he's VASTLY overrated. Especially in his own end. You want to talk about horrible deals.....that guy is no way going to live up to that UFA deal in the desert.

Those Hawks teams made a lot of defensemen look bad....Pronger in 2010 as well. Hedman in 2015.

I think elite gets thrown around way too much and way too quickly in any sport today. There are a lot of VERY good players and some of those can make the HOF, but to me....elite is the "best of the best" cue Top Gun GIF, as they hold the advantage regardless of match-up.
- SteveRain

Actually I was going to go there next. To me the only elite defensemen who were on teams that won cups since 2010 were Keith, Doughty and Hedman.

I am likely in the minority...but I think he's VASTLY overrated. Especially in his own end. You want to talk about horrible deals.....that guy is no way going to live up to that UFA deal in the desert.
- SteveRain

He’s ok, he kind of reminds me of Jones. Both have strong parts of their game, both are wanting in other aspects.

I am likely in the minority...but I think he's VASTLY overrated. Especially in his own end. You want to talk about horrible deals.....that guy is no way going to live up to that UFA deal in the desert.
- SteveRain

I imagine Binnington would disagree with you. I absolutely don't agree with a contract that rich into a players late 30's. Gambling against father time

Btw the last elite dman imo was Lidstrom, he was so good.

I imagine Binnington would disagree with you. I absolutely don't agree with a contract that rich into a players late 30's. Gambling against father time

Btw the last elite dman imo was Lidstrom, he was so good.
- BetweenTheDots

Lidstrom was a generational talent. One of the top defensemen of all time.

He’s ok, he kind of reminds me of Jones. Both have strong parts of their game, both are wanting in other aspects.
- paulr

that's fair....so I would consider both a "#1" defensemen and both are clear cut #1s but neither are truly elite defensemen like a Hedman.

WOuld you also agree that Martinez was the Kings version of Hammer?

i think that's the part Bowman needs to find next to supplement Jones with...he needs that defensive defensemen who is a 2b type....if it weren't for Seabrook, no question Hammer was the #2 and likely still was. Seabrook was just a better match for Keith's overall game.

hammer to me will be the most underrated Hawk during those cup runs....everyone will saw Bolland or Crawford, but to me....it was Hammer.

I imagine Binnington would disagree with you. I absolutely don't agree with a contract that rich into a players late 30's. Gambling against father time

Btw the last elite dman imo was Lidstrom, he was so good.
- BetweenTheDots

100%....on both.

I have STL as part of my territory and they said they missed Pieterangelo a TON this year. Binnington also got paid...so no idea if he got contempt and/or felt pressured to produce at that cup winning playoff clip.

Lidstrom was a generational talent. One of the top defensemen of all time.
- paulr

Yep, that's what i consider elite, generational talent.

that's fair....so I would consider both a "#1" defensemen and both are clear cut #1s but neither are truly elite defensemen like a Hedman.

WOuld you also agree that Martinez was the Kings version of Hammer?

i think that's the part Bowman needs to find next to supplement Jones with...he needs that defensive defensemen who is a 2b type....if it weren't for Seabrook, no question Hammer was the #2 and likely still was. Seabrook was just a better match for Keith's overall game.

hammer to me will be the most underrated Hawk during those cup runs....everyone will saw Bolland or Crawford, but to me....it was Hammer.
- SteveRain

Don’t get me started on Hammer. He was a (frank)ing warrior. He was so vital to the Hawks’ success. Seabrook had a ton of big goals that could give him an edge but the Hawks don’t win cups two and three without both of them. And don’t forget Oduya. Bowman’s decision to keep him over Leddy was pure genius . Had he kept Leddy and not re-signed Oduya the Hawks don’t win their third cup.

Yep, that's what i consider elite, generational talent.
- BetweenTheDots

Then you only consider two or three defensemen and maybe six forwards to be elite?

I look at generational to be best of their generation. So since the 70s the only generational talents were Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and Lidstrom. But there were a number of elite players including the aforementioned plus Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane, Keith Doughty, Hedman etc.

Then you only consider two or three defensemen and maybe six forwards to be elite?

I look at generational to be best of their generation. So since the 70s the only generational talents were Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and Lidstrom. But there were a number of elite players including the aforementioned plus Ovechkin, Crosby, Kane, Keith Doughty, Hedman etc.
- paulr

Yea that's why i don't like using that word, but it is what it means to me.

Prefer top 10 or 20, insert position player, in the league

It always comes back to what are the qualifications of being "elite". These discussions always get tired fast, because no one is on the same page on the definition.

Karlsson (in his prime)?
Burns?
PK Subban?
Suter?

I think if you are building a team, the "elite" defender is great to have but not necessary. What I believe is needed is defensive partners that play well together, within the system and that compliment each other well.

Seabrook was not near elite, but he was outstanding at playing his part/position alongside Keith. If the Hawks can find a way to mix/match the D-pairs, I think it will go much further to making them competitive than trying to draft/sign/trade/develop an "elite" defenseman.
- Chunk

Se brook in his prime > Karlsson, Burns, Subban, or Suter

So, was Crawford elite?

So, was Crawford elite?
- mohel

No

Theo

Not sure if you saw the list I posted.....but since the Toews/Kane era, the number of 1st round picks (players) that bowman has taken fliers on to plug to holes is remarkable. Same can be said for a bunch that didn't pan out here or didn't hit the minimal level the organization wanted.

So while the Hawks have had a good run at European scouting and signing those type of players, I think it's VERY fair to question what the scouts are looking at on draft night when Bowman makes these picks...and even worse.....revisiting the players they likely LIKED and took a flier on later on down the road which seldom have worked out. Very alarming trend.

Yes, I get that's hard to gauge a player's growth when they are teenagers, but that list.....is.....ugly.
- SteveRain

Good points. Agree, it is fair to ask what the team is looking for exactly when drafting.

Another way to put it is if the strategy is best player available, then how do the Hawks scouting staff and GM group (Bowman has 3 assistant GMs) define best player available.

While there may be natural overlap in some aspects, I can imagine there’s not one standard definition across all teams.

Se brook in his prime > Karlsson, Burns, Subban, or Suter
- Ogilthorpe2

Talent wise I’d argue that point but Seabrook was far more valuable to his team than any of those players were.