You're stuck on the idea KK will be exactly the same next season though.

It's highly possible he'll already be better than Dvorak.
- Scabeh

mon ami, do you remember the kind of season he had last year? and the one before?
what exactly makes you think he'll be that much better?
and even if is better, he would need to be a LOT better to move the needle. these past 2 seasons were catastrophics, nothing less.
I'm all for being patient and give the kid some time... but the clock is ticking. especially for a 3rd overall.

I'd also rather have the picks than Dvorak.
- Scabeh

there we agree

I'd also rather have the picks than Dvorak.
- Scabeh

I think we've agreed on this most of the way. It all comes down to if Kotkaniemi truly wants out. If he's happy to stay and just wanted the cash (which I wouldn't blame him for in the slightest) the Habs should figure out a way to make it work. If not, take the picks, accept the loss but don't double down on a guy like Dvorak as some "savior" for a season that probably can't be saved.

Oh...and do a full internal audit of what happened with Kotkaniemi from before draft to present date and try to understand all the ways the Habs (frank)ed this up...and hold those responsible accountable for once

mon ami, do you remember the kind of season he had last year? and the one before?
what exactly makes you think he'll be that much better?
and even if is better, he would need to be a LOT better to move the needle. these past 2 seasons were catastrophics, nothing less.
I'm all for being patient and give the kid some time... but the clock is ticking. especially for a 3rd overall.
- fidopro

I do remember.

He had ups and downs, which is expected from a very young player. You're going a pretty strong with "catastrophic".

You say you're patient, but he just turned 21. I guess we have a very different definition of patience.

I've listed a few other players who also had "catastrophic" seasons at 20 years old, sure wish their teams had given up on THEM at the time.

there we agree
- fidopro

I do remember.

He had ups and downs, which is expected from a very young player. You're going a pretty strong with "catastrophic".

You say you're patient, but he just turned 21. I guess we have a very different definition of patience.

I've listed a few other players who also had "catastrophic" seasons at 20 years old, sure wish their teams had given up on THEM at the time.
- Scabeh

well, at 1.5M I'm a lot more patient than at 6.1M
and no, I think catastrophic is the right word. he was the worst forward on the team. day in day out. whatever the stats you posted say.

I think we've agreed on this most of the way. It all comes down to if Kotkaniemi truly wants out. If he's happy to stay and just wanted the cash (which I wouldn't blame him for in the slightest) the Habs should figure out a way to make it work. If not, take the picks, accept the loss but don't double down on a guy like Dvorak as some "savior" for a season that probably can't be saved.

Oh...and do a full internal audit of what happened with Kotkaniemi from before draft to present date and try to understand all the ways the Habs (frank)ed this up...and hold those responsible accountable for once
- Takemedrunkimhome

Firing Timmins would be a start!

But yeah, we really need to stop rushing players for nothing... That's kinda why I'll miss Bouchard... we've seen young players truly improve under him. Hopefully Houde does as good of a job.

Firing Timmins would be a start!

But yeah, we really need to stop rushing players for nothing... That's kinda why I'll miss Bouchard... we've seen young players truly improve under him. Hopefully Houde does as good of a job.
- Scabeh

there we agree again

I think we've agreed on this most of the way. It all comes down to if Kotkaniemi truly wants out. If he's happy to stay and just wanted the cash (which I wouldn't blame him for in the slightest) the Habs should figure out a way to make it work. If not, take the picks, accept the loss but don't double down on a guy like Dvorak as some "savior" for a season that probably can't be saved.

Oh...and do a full internal audit of what happened with Kotkaniemi from before draft to present date and try to understand all the ways the Habs (frank)ed this up...and hold those responsible accountable for once
- Takemedrunkimhome

i think one key with KK is, say he progresses this season. not a breakout year, but he puts up 35-40 points, improves faceoffs, defence, etc. then what? do you think you can lock him in long term at a reasonable rate? or is he going to use this 6.1 figure as a baseline cap hit for all future negotiations? because as much as the consideration is for this year, they also don't want to be stuck deciding between a $7 million 40-point center and letting him walk as a UFA.

as for the bolded, well, lol

well, at 1.5M I'm a lot more patient than at 6.1M
and no, I think catastrophic is the right word. he was the worst forward on the team. day in day out. whatever the stats you posted say.
- fidopro

Guess we're seeing things very differently there as well.

At the halfway point of the season, KK was 3 points behind Tkachuk in terms of production despite being used considerably less (3 min per game and not first powerplay wave).

Then he hit a wall and with that crazy schedule, never fully recovered and saw his icetime diminish even more while also being bounced all around the lineup.

KK looks like a guy that will thrive once he gets some stability and gets actually trusted.

Now granted, his play hasn't helped him in the latter but it'll come sooner than later imo.

Firing Timmins would be a start!

But yeah, we really need to stop rushing players for nothing... That's kinda why I'll miss Bouchard... we've seen young players truly improve under him. Hopefully Houde does as good of a job.
- Scabeh

Nailed it. Suzuki was known to need time, was given time to develop, looks great. Caufield, same story. Everybody knew Kotkaniemi was over drafted and needed time but Habs weny so long without a top line C so they rushed him. The rest is just dominoes

I think we've agreed on this most of the way. It all comes down to if Kotkaniemi truly wants out. If he's happy to stay and just wanted the cash (which I wouldn't blame him for in the slightest) the Habs should figure out a way to make it work. If not, take the picks, accept the loss but don't double down on a guy like Dvorak as some "savior" for a season that probably can't be saved.

Oh...and do a full internal audit of what happened with Kotkaniemi from before draft to present date and try to understand all the ways the Habs (frank)ed this up...and hold those responsible accountable for once
- Takemedrunkimhome

They did the same thing with Galchenyuk (who missed most of the previous season with an injury)... rushed to the NHL when not ready, needed to learn the game a little more, needed to work on basics like face offs, etc..., needed to get more size / weight / maturity.

It is not brain surgery.

If you are going to throw someone int he NHL (that is not a McDavid) as your development tool, you are gonna go through a lot of growing pains, and it will probably take longer.

As for KK, throw in an extra year and a half of basically no real practices because of Covid and you have another fail point.

You'd think they would have learned from the Galchenyuk disaster, but they did not.

So I get KK and his frustration with the organization and his slow progress, and how he might feel a different place might be a better option for him to become a better NHL player. And then, throw $6.1 million on top of that....

Firing Timmins would be a start!

But yeah, we really need to stop rushing players for nothing... That's kinda why I'll miss Bouchard... we've seen young players truly improve under him. Hopefully Houde does as good of a job.
- Scabeh

Maybe, but he is not in charge of player development, and the way Habs have handled high draft picks has been a huge failure.

Guess we're seeing things very differently there as well.

At the halfway point of the season, KK was 3 points behind Tkachuk in terms of production despite being used considerably less (3 min per game and not first powerplay wave).

Then he hit a wall and with that crazy schedule, never fully recovered and saw his icetime diminish even more while also being bounced all around the lineup.

KK looks like a guy that will thrive once he gets some stability and gets actually trusted.

Now granted, his play hasn't helped him in the latter but it'll come sooner than later imo.


- Scabeh

but Tkachuk if not scoring will bring something else. he gets under your skin, makes room for his linemates, fights...
kk... not that much. 2 very different players.

we nEEd mr.peanut so bad.

we nEEd mr.peanut so bad.
- kicksave856

- Mashadar

but Tkachuk if not scoring will bring something else. he gets under your skin, makes room for his linemates, fights...
kk... not that much. 2 very different players.
- fidopro

See, I saw him differently. I saw him trying to play with an edge, leading to him sometimes talking penalties he really shouldn't have. That's why I want him centering Gally and Anderson. Allow him to play the skill game, as well as be mentored by two players known for their edge, but have learned where to draw the line. This will make him a better player overall in the long run.

Maybe, but he is not in charge of player development, and the way Habs have handled high draft picks has been a huge failure.
- Mashadar

you may be right.
but lets imagine this. let say kk had spent the last 3 seasons in Finland. he would make the team for the first time this year, at camp.
would he be a better player than he is now?

you may be right.
but lets imagine this. let say kk had spent the last 3 seasons in Finland. he would make the team for the first time this year, at camp.
would he be a better player than he is now?
- fidopro

Been saying that since he was drafted.

Said the same thing with Galchenyuk.

This is what frustrates me the most about the Habs. Was pretty excited when Bouchard came on board and looked like such a great development coach... too bad he left.

See, I saw him differently. I saw him trying to play with an edge, leading to him sometimes talking penalties he really shouldn't have. That's why I want him centering Gally and Anderson. Allow him to play the skill game, as well as be mentored by two players known for their edge, but have learned where to draw the line. This will make him a better player overall in the long run.
- Darksyde

I also think kk would be better playing a grinding game. less skills more grit. he needs to show it though. every night. on a constant basis.
I don't see him getting 70-80 points. ever. but 50-55 with a physical game, yes.

Been saying that since he was drafted.

Said the same thing with Galchenyuk.

This is what frustrates me the most about the Habs. Was pretty excited when Bouchard came on board and looked like such a great development coach... too bad he left.
- Mashadar

but I'm not sure the answer to the question is yes. he may have been rushed, but he sure learned a lot. probablly a lot more than if he had stayed in Finland.

we nEEd mr.peanut so bad.
- kicksave856

you have an odd way of referring to yourself as "we".

If I may?

Replacing the output of KK over the last few seasons would not be a difficult task, even in house.

Here's the problem, 6.1 million vrs KK's potential vrs draft picks vrs if he even wants to stay in Mtl.

The solution is quite simple..

but I'm not sure the answer to the question is yes. he may have been rushed, but he sure learned a lot. probablly a lot more than if he had stayed in Finland.
- fidopro

I think it is vastly different to make the jump in a place like Columbus or Arizona than Montreal or Toronto, from a focus and attention on the player.

There are so many parts to the equation, but rushing him (or any prospect to the NHL) is rarely the best option.