Mike Augello: Leafs Top 40 Prospects - #23
- mikeinbuffalo

from last thread:

Some dogs are pretty smart...so you may be dropping in that list of yours
:p
- Fakepartofme

all animals are very smart

some are poorly bred, imprinted or trained

read bf skinner/operant conditioning

this could help you with your kids if they’re having behavioral problems

particularly, special needs

I’ve been disappointed with the alliteration lately Mike🤦‍♂️👃🏿

Mats wasn't Wendel. No matter the fact that a recent poll from the Athletic has him as the best Leaf, he wasn't tough enough, didn't fight, he was just another "Chicken Swede". The Don Cherry knuckle-draggers never really accepted Mats.

And Mats was a phenomenal hockey player. In my humble opinion, I thought Forsberg was the best Swedish hockey player of that period, but the people of Sweden thought it was Mats Sundin.
- Monkeypunk

I'd say Forsberg was the most talented swedish player of his time (maybe ever).

But considering the injuries, and how (frank)ing stable Mats was at producing high numbers year after year.... you can definetely make an argument that over their career, he's been better.

Of course the Stanley cups won by Foppa also helps his legacy.

Rielly is absolutely an $8mil Dman.

Marner is a $10.9mil forward.

Leafs fans are ungrateful towards the star players we have.

Except Matthews, everyone loves him.
- Arctic_AARDVARK

We'll see come July 1st 2022

I would not be so confident that this team is a playoff lock.
- fifty__missions

Here's how I see it. The Leaf's moves:

Out:
(G) Andersen
(D) Bogosian
(F) Thornton, Hyman, Galchenyuk, Foligno (for what he's worth)

In:
(G) Mrazek
(D) Promoted Sandin
(F) Ritchie, Kase, Bunting, Kampf

Goaltending is a positive moving from Ander5en to Mra3ek.

While I did like Bogosian's strength down low, I'm not sure we're going to miss him when you get Sandin playing regularly. He's a much better player. Let's face it - Bogo played 14 -15 minutes / game against weaker competition and he had a number of games that were decent, but he was also walked by poor competition on a number of occasions.

Obviously up front we are going to miss Hyman. He made every line he was on better. He was a tireless worker for us and he was fast.

When you look at Ritchie, you're not getting Hyman, but you are getting some meanness that we sorely lack. You're getting a defensive centre that should help the PK and help stabilize leads later in games in a guy like Kampf. He's not going to score, but he should give us what a healthy Riley Nash would have offered.

Bunting and Kase are fliers. If Kase stays healthy, he's a 20 - 25 goal threat. If Bunting pans out, he's a 15 - 20 goal threat. They could be the depth scoring from that third line that we didn't have last year.

And quite frankly, just not having Joe Thornton there should make things faster and better.

I honestly don't know if they're better because a lot of "ifs" are stuck in there relying on some bottom-6 production, but they're not worse as I see it.

Here's how I see it. The Leaf's moves:

Out:
(G) Andersen
(D) Bogosian
(F) Thornton, Hyman, Galchenyuk, Foligno (for what he's worth)

In:
(G) Mrazek
(D) Promoted Sandin
(F) Ritchie, Kase, Bunting, Kampf

Goaltending is a positive moving from Ander5en to Mra3ek.

While I did like Bogosian's strength down low, I'm not sure we're going to miss him when you get Sandin playing regularly. He's a much better player. Let's face it - Bogo played 14 -15 minutes / game against weaker competition and he had a number of games that were decent, but he was also walked by poor competition on a number of occasions.

Obviously up front we are going to miss Hyman. He made every line he was on better. He was a tireless worker for us and he was fast.

When you look at Ritchie, you're not getting Hyman, but you are getting some meanness that we sorely lack. You're getting a defensive centre that should help the PK and help stabilize leads later in games in a guy like Kampf. He's not going to score, but he should give us what a healthy Riley Nash would have offered.

Bunting and Kase are fliers. If Kase stays healthy, he's a 20 - 25 goal threat. If Bunting pans out, he's a 15 - 20 goal threat. They could be the depth scoring from that third line that we didn't have last year.

And quite frankly, just not having Joe Thornton there should make things faster and better.

I honestly don't know if they're better because a lot of "ifs" are stuck in there relying on some bottom-6 production, but they're not worse as I see it.
- Monkeypunk

I think Campzek will be fine, but losing Freddy is a huge downgrade imo. He played injured all last season. It hard for a goalie to maintain his career average stats when they aren’t 100%

Here's how I see it. The Leaf's moves:

Out:
(G) Andersen
(D) Bogosian
(F) Thornton, Hyman, Galchenyuk, Foligno (for what he's worth)

In:
(G) Mrazek
(D) Promoted Sandin
(F) Ritchie, Kase, Bunting, Kampf

Goaltending is a positive moving from Ander5en to Mra3ek.

While I did like Bogosian's strength down low, I'm not sure we're going to miss him when you get Sandin playing regularly. He's a much better player. Let's face it - Bogo played 14 -15 minutes / game against weaker competition and he had a number of games that were decent, but he was also walked by poor competition on a number of occasions.

Obviously up front we are going to miss Hyman. He made every line he was on better. He was a tireless worker for us and he was fast.

When you look at Ritchie, you're not getting Hyman, but you are getting some meanness that we sorely lack. You're getting a defensive centre that should help the PK and help stabilize leads later in games in a guy like Kampf. He's not going to score, but he should give us what a healthy Riley Nash would have offered.

Bunting and Kase are fliers. If Kase stays healthy, he's a 20 - 25 goal threat. If Bunting pans out, he's a 15 - 20 goal threat. They could be the depth scoring from that third line that we didn't have last year.

And quite frankly, just not having Joe Thornton there should make things faster and better.

I honestly don't know if they're better because a lot of "ifs" are stuck in there relying on some bottom-6 production, but they're not worse as I see it.
- Monkeypunk

Guys out, guys in.

Difference is the competitiveness of our division.

I'm not nearly as ok with our goaltending as you are.

This team is right on the playoff edge imo.

I'd say Forsberg was the most talented swedish player of his time (maybe ever).

But considering the injuries, and how (frank)ing stable Mats was at producing high numbers year after year.... you can definetely make an argument that over their career, he's been better.

Of course the Stanley cups won by Foppa also helps his legacy.
- Scabeh

Forsberg and Mario were my two favourite players to watch back then. I always felt that Crosby played a lot like Forsberg. He had that lower body strength and slipperiness and intelligence with the puck that made him a constant threat.

What I wanted from Mats was more consistent anger. When he was pissed off, he was a beast.

I think Campzek will be fine, but losing Freddy is a huge downgrade imo. He played injured all last season. It hard for a goalie to maintain his career average stats when they aren’t 100%
- Arctic_AARDVARK

I know you're a big proponent of Andersen. I loved him for the first 3.5 years. In the 2019-20 season, he was well below average from December onwards, and unfortunately that play (whether exacerbated by injuries or not) carried into the next season with the exception of a short stretch in February. I will offer than he played very well against Columbus in the play-ins.

For the record I hope he rebounds. I like him. I just don't think he was ever going to rebound here.

Guys out, guys in.

Difference is the competitiveness of our division.

I'm not nearly as ok with our goaltending as you are.

This team is right on the playoff edge imo.
- fifty__missions

Sure. But I'm expecting Matthews, Marner and Nylander to all be a year older and a year more motivated as well. These are excellent or elite players. They all _should_ take steps forward. They're very young.

In our division Tampa is arguably weaker (still awesome).

Boston has Hall and Foligno. If Foligno stays healthy and Hall stays motivated those could be beneficial. They have also replaced Rask with Ullmark, and even if Rask does come back, I'm not sure about his motivation. Regardless, Boston is a good team.

Florida added Reinhart and resigned Bennett. I think Reinhart is simply okay, and Bennett has played 10 good games in his career when he was pissed off last year with Florida. Let's see how he does this year. They also signed Thornton, so they suck now.

I must have missed where Tampa traded Blake Coleman, David Savard and Yanni Goude before they gave away Tyler Johnson and Goodrow

Teams that are going for it don't throw away their best players. I've said this before - once you've been at your rebuild for a while and properly stock piled the cupboards (and here Dubas deserves criticism, because for the value they've acquired with 2nd rd picks, they still need to keep their 1st rd picks to build up the farm) THEN you can start moving out pieces because you've already got someone waiting in the wings (like we did when Felix passed Fuhr). We don't have that. But we're going for it.

Rielly is very unlikely to move.
- Monkeypunk

Agree, he will be eating up minutes. Will take a significant offer to move him. We also don't know for certain he doesn't re-sign. Replacing Kerfoot next summer and the $1.2 million boost they get by Kessel being off the books, gets them there if they choose.

Sorry, apples/oranges comparison.

We have not had an IOTA of the success Tampa has had getting in this situation. We are in a dogfight just to make the playoffs. And we need to deal with our assets properly, not to try to save a couple management jobs.
- fifty__missions

Tied for first

Here's how I see it. The Leaf's moves:

Out:
(G) Andersen
(D) Bogosian
(F) Thornton, Hyman, Galchenyuk, Foligno (for what he's worth)

In:
(G) Mrazek
(D) Promoted Sandin
(F) Ritchie, Kase, Bunting, Kampf

Goaltending is a positive moving from Ander5en to Mra3ek.

While I did like Bogosian's strength down low, I'm not sure we're going to miss him when you get Sandin playing regularly. He's a much better player. Let's face it - Bogo played 14 -15 minutes / game against weaker competition and he had a number of games that were decent, but he was also walked by poor competition on a number of occasions.

Obviously up front we are going to miss Hyman. He made every line he was on better. He was a tireless worker for us and he was fast.

When you look at Ritchie, you're not getting Hyman, but you are getting some meanness that we sorely lack. You're getting a defensive centre that should help the PK and help stabilize leads later in games in a guy like Kampf. He's not going to score, but he should give us what a healthy Riley Nash would have offered.

Bunting and Kase are fliers. If Kase stays healthy, he's a 20 - 25 goal threat. If Bunting pans out, he's a 15 - 20 goal threat. They could be the depth scoring from that third line that we didn't have last year.

And quite frankly, just not having Joe Thornton there should make things faster and better.

I honestly don't know if they're better because a lot of "ifs" are stuck in there relying on some bottom-6 production, but they're not worse as I see it.
- Monkeypunk

"Mra3ek".

Your last paragraph pretty much nails my feelings: there's so many "ifs" in this lineup that it's hard to gauge if this squad is better than last season. They very well may be but the (non-)stars need to align pretty perfectly to make this team take a positive step forward.

Let's just say that I'm cautiously wildly pessimistic. (it will make the pain more tolerable, amirite/amirov?)

The problem for many leafs fans is that if you aren’t a goal scorer you’re not worth much. Doesn’t matter if Marner is essentially the best player on the team for the PP, PK, and top line minutes (all around game is what I’m referencing). If he’s not a hitter or a scorer so many people consider him not worth much.

Also unlike Matthews my guess is he’s in Toronto a long time
- Dozzer

Not to nitpick because I would say that same thing myself...

But how is it that you and me and people like us have determined Marner is the best player on the team for the PP. Was it the terrible powerplay or the zero PP goals over the course of an entire season that really sold us. 🤔

Edit: I reread it... Got your context now. I've barely slept this week, things are moving slow. 🤦🏻‍♂️ I do think in theory he should a difference maker on a PP, the difference just hasn't been made.

I'd say Forsberg was the most talented swedish player of his time (maybe ever).

But considering the injuries, and how (frank)ing stable Mats was at producing high numbers year after year.... you can definetely make an argument that over their career, he's been better.

Of course the Stanley cups won by Foppa also helps his legacy.
- Scabeh

I don't think there's any question that Forsberg is the greatest Swedish forward of all-time though his (reckless?) style of game cost him a lengthy career.

Mats is definitely #2 on the list though. He was an absolute marvel of consistency and literally willed the Leafs to far more success than maybe they deserved during his tenure. From all accounts, he was very respected in the locker room - a quiet leader who lead by example.

Love Mats but, I have to admit, his legacy as a Leaf is tarnished (unfairly, maybe) by his unwillingness to accept a trade to help this team when they were extremely unlikely to make the playoffs in his last season on the team. Signing with the (frank)ing Nucks the next season was a real kick to the groin as well.

I forgive him... but will never forget.

Not to nitpick because I would say that same thing myself...

But how is it that you and me and people like us have determined Marner is the best player on the team for the PP. Was it the terrible powerplay or the zero PP goals over the course of an entire season that really sold us. 🤔
- joel878

Not everything is about scoring.

That’s how. If someone doesn’t understand that then they don’t understand hockey. End of story.

Mats wasn't Wendel. No matter the fact that a recent poll from the Athletic has him as the best Leaf, he wasn't tough enough, didn't fight, he was just another "Chicken Swede". The Don Cherry knuckle-draggers never really accepted Mats.

And Mats was a phenomenal hockey player. In my humble opinion, I thought Forsberg was the best Swedish hockey player of that period, but the people of Sweden thought it was Mats Sundin.
- Monkeypunk

The two greatest games I ever saw Sundin play were:

1996 World Cup - I think it was the semis, Canada vs. Sweden. Damn, he was dominant. Canada won in OT, but he was the 1st, 2nd and 3rd stars of the game.

Welcome Back Wendel night at MLG. We had just got Wendel back (huge mistake), and Sundin let Toronto know that it was his team, not Wendel's. (I had a "Welcome Back, Wendel - from Cheerios t-shirt - it was my hockey shirt for years).

He also had some epic playoff performances.

But having seen what he could do, I always wondered why he didn't do it more often. He often left you wanting more.

The problem for many leafs fans is that if you aren’t a goal scorer you’re not worth much. Doesn’t matter if Marner is essentially the best player on the team for the PP, PK, and top line minutes (all around game is what I’m referencing). If he’s not a hitter or a scorer so many people consider him not worth much.

Also unlike Matthews my guess is he’s in Toronto a long time
- Dozzer

Best player on the team for actually none of those.

Not to nitpick because I would say that same thing myself...

But how is it that you and me and people like us have determined Marner is the best player on the team for the PP. Was it the terrible powerplay or the zero PP goals over the course of an entire season that really sold us. 🤔

Edit: I reread it... Got your context now. I've barely slept this week, things are moving slow. 🤦🏻‍♂️ I do think in theory he should a difference maker on a PP, the difference just hasn't been made.
- joel878

I think Marner is built to drive a power play but the lack of two elite shooters really handicapped the team's ability to keep the opposition guessing. If the destination is always to get the puck on AM34's stick you're predictable AF.

It's hard to believe Malhotra had full control of the PP - one has got to think that Keefe was adamant that the PP1 unit was an immutable 5. Which seems absurd in retrospect (and at the time!) - why keep going back to the well when there's obviously no water in the (frank)ing thing?

from last thread:

Some dogs are pretty smart...so you may be dropping in that list of yours
:p
- Fakepartofme

all animals are very smart

some are poorly bred, imprinted or trained

read bf skinner/operant conditioning

this could help you with your kids if they’re having behavioral problems

particularly, special needs

I’ve been disappointed with the alliteration lately Mike🤦‍♂️👃🏿
- Skalapy

It’s true about Skinner and with just the slightest adjustments in voltage here and there, the kids really step in line. Also saved money feeding pets and kids all the same food all from the same trough (when they behave of course).

Forsberg and Mario were my two favourite players to watch back then. I always felt that Crosby played a lot like Forsberg. He had that lower body strength and slipperiness and intelligence with the puck that made him a constant threat.

What I wanted from Mats was more consistent anger. When he was pissed off, he was a beast.
- Monkeypunk

Ha! Read my post.

This is exactly right.

The problem for many leafs fans is that if you aren’t a goal scorer you’re not worth much. Doesn’t matter if Marner is essentially the best player on the team for the PP, PK, and top line minutes (all around game is what I’m referencing). If he’s not a hitter or a scorer so many people consider him not worth much.

Also unlike Matthews my guess is he’s in Toronto a long time
- Dozzer

This is absolutely true of our top stars.

But the opposite is true of our bottom guys - Leafs fans will seize one thing the guy does OK, and use it as justification for keeping him.

"He wins 52% of faceoffs in the neutral zone!"

Yeah, but he's a terrible hockey player.

The two greatest games I ever saw Sundin play were:

1996 World Cup - I think it was the semis, Canada vs. Sweden. Damn, he was dominant. Canada won in OT, but he was the 1st, 2nd and 3rd stars of the game.

Welcome Back Wendel night at MLG. We had just got Wendel back (huge mistake), and Sundin let Toronto know that it was his team, not Wendel's. (I had a "Welcome Back, Wendel - from Cheerios t-shirt - it was my hockey shirt for years).

He also had some epic playoff performances.

But having seen what he could do, I always wondered why he didn't do it more often. He often left you wanting more.
- Atomic Wedgie

Good call on this last point.

Not everything is about scoring.

That’s how. If someone doesn’t understand that then they don’t understand hockey. End of story.
- Dozzer

Cause hockey isn't won by scoring more goals?

This is absolutely true of our top stars.

But the opposite is true of our bottom guys - Leafs fans will seize one thing the guy does OK, and use it as justification for keeping him.

"He wins 52% of faceoffs in the neutral zone!"

Yeah, but he's a terrible hockey player.
- Atomic Wedgie

I like good all around games and tbh if the leafs had more salary they could spend I’d want better D

Like I mentioned earlier, the best D man was only plus 11, which was 40th amongst the D men around the league. I’m not too worried about the forwards, there’s enough skill to score, but the D isn’t sitting too well with me

One other favourite Sundin moment:

I think we were playing Ottawa.

I also think it was in OT.

We had a bit of pressure, but Ottawa managed to clear it - or so they thought.

Sundin - from the point, right up against the boards - wired a slapper under the bar.

It was so abrupt - nobody was expecting it. There was a really weird buzz in the crowd - about a 1 second delay in reacting.

I'll see if I can find the clip.