There's some recency bias in this. I think Biggio is still developing and getting better - he's 26 years old. I am giving him a massive break for this season, because he has been hurt all season, so I don't count the year. Next year is sort of his make-or-break year, though in terms of whether he can establish himself as a regular. Look at these comparisons:

Biggio when he was 24 had an OBP of .364 with an OPS of .793 and a WAR of 3.0 (in a 500 AB season, he projected to 23 HR); as a 2B, he basically had 1 run saved above average, so he was marginally above average.

Biggio when he was 25 had an OBP of .375 with an OPS of .807 and a WAR of 2.0 (in a 500 AB season, he projected to 18 HR); as a 2B, he basically had 2 runs saved above average, so he was marginally above average.

Semien when he was 24 had an OBP of .310 with an OPS of .715 and a WAR of 1.7 (in a 500 AB season, he projected to 13 HR); as a SS, he basically had -8 Runs saved against average, which was well below average.

Semien when he was 25 had an OBP of .300 with an OPS of .735 and a WAR of 3.5 (in a 500 AB season, he projected to 24 HR); as a SS, he basically had 1 run saved above average, so he was marginally above average.


In a head-to-head, age-for-age comparison, Biggio doesn't look that bad compared to the 31 year old guy who is about to get paid $25m / year for at least 6 years.
- Monkeypunk

I may be in the minority, but I do like Espinal... I think he can take over the 2B spot and leave Biggio as a utility player for now.

I can't speak for Nash but Danault is a strong skater.

But yes, I believe a shutdown C better have some wheels. Do you disagree?
- mjones242

Well usually, a shut down center is "shutting down" the better faster star players of the league. So they should have speed imo.

I may be in the minority, but I do like Espinal... I think he can take over the 2B spot and leave Biggio as a utility player for now.
- PatC80

Semien's awesomeness at the plate has ruined me for whoever replaces him next season.









unless he comes back.

Semien's awesomeness at the plate has ruined me for whoever replaces him next season.









unless he comes back.
- Fakepartofme

for sure, if he comes back we'll be ok.. Keep Espinal at 3B, but if he signs elsewhere, move Espinal to 2B and put Valera(who I also like) at 3B

I may be in the minority, but I do like Espinal... I think he can take over the 2B spot and leave Biggio as a utility player for now.
- PatC80

You'd be in the minority insofar as I'm concerned. I like Espinal - but he is the prototypical utility player in my mind. Excellent fielder, no power, above average runner, decent contact average.

Biggio has more power, is a better baserunner, has a better eye and has a higher ceiling.

It will all mete itself out over the course of the next 6 months anyway.

You'd be in the minority insofar as I'm concerned. I like Espinal - but he is the prototypical utility player in my mind. Excellent fielder, no power, above average runner, decent contact average.

Biggio has more power, is a better baserunner, has a better eye and has a higher ceiling.

It will all mete itself out over the course of the next 6 months anyway.
- Monkeypunk

You're right, but I just feel like Biggio has to prove himself again after this terrible, injury plagued season..

Espinal and Valera, don't have much power, but they don't need to be power hitters.. They are guys that can get on base and are both really solid defensively.

Holik was a severely underappreciated player. Sort of a proto-Bergeron.
- mjones242

The Rangers over-rated him.

The Rangers over-rated him.
- Atomic Wedgie

New Jersey loved him.

Well usually, a shut down center is "shutting down" the better faster star players of the league. So they should have speed imo.
- Fakepartofme

Bergeron and Couturier aren’t speed demons and are close to the top 2 in the league.

Bergeron and Couturier aren’t speed demons and are close to the top 2 in the league.
- Garnie

These are not shut down guys, just very good 200 ft players. In my opinion only.

steve simmons
@simmonssteve

More bad news coming today from Rogers Media, the company that put the dys in dysfunctional
12:05 PM · Sep 29, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

These are not shut down guys, just very good 200 ft players. In my opinion only.
- bixll

If a perennial Selke winner isn't considered a "shut down guy" then I honestly don't know what a "shut down guy" is.

Bergeron and Couturier aren’t speed demons and are close to the top 2 in the league.
- Garnie

I dont consider them 3rd/4th line shut down guys though
Just really good defensively

Weird question for you guys:

I had a software update on my work computer last night.

It knocked out my camera in Teams, so I had to let IT remote in and fix it.

Now all my fonts are weird - like they are written with a marker that's fading out.

Any help?

If a perennial Selke winner isn't considered a "shut down guy" then I honestly don't know what a "shut down guy" is.
- Leafs43

I would consider a guy that was primarily a defensive player. He wins those because of his 200 ft game, not because he shuts the top player on the other team down. Again, just me.

I would consider a guy that was primarily a defensive player. He wins those because of his 200 ft game, not because he shuts the top player on the other team down. Again, just me.
- bixll

Fair distinction.

If a perennial Selke winner isn't considered a "shut down guy" then I honestly don't know what a "shut down guy" is.
- Leafs43

I find the selke usually goes to the players who players who are great at both ends of the ice. Ya I know its a "defensive forward" trophy...but the nominees are usually top end guys who can score, create a scoring AND defend.

I would consider a guy that was primarily a defensive player. He wins those because of his 200 ft game, not because he shuts the top player on the other team down. Again, just me.
- bixll

I agree.

I find the selke usually goes to the players who players who are great at both ends of the ice. Ya I know its a "defensive forward" trophy...but the nominees are usually top end guys who can score, create a scoring AND defend.
- Fakepartofme

I think Sid was second in voting this year, hardly a shut down guy.

Weird question for you guys:

I had a software update on my work computer last night.

It knocked out my camera in Teams, so I had to let IT remote in and fix it.

Now all my fonts are weird - like they are written with a marker that's fading out.

Any help?
- Atomic Wedgie

Those updates cause soooo many problems with software. Specially older software... OMG

I find the selke usually goes to the players who players who are great at both ends of the ice. Ya I know its a "defensive forward" trophy...but the nominees are usually top end guys who can score, create a scoring AND defend.
- Fakepartofme

Bob Gainey would chip in 15-20 goals a year.

He's kinda the reason they have the Selke.

I think there's an even greater emphasis on the scoring aspect of the Selke Award today.

Those updates cause soooo many problems with software. Specially older software... OMG
- bixll

We're running Windows for Workgroups 3.11 - is that old?

Tonight's lineup looks god awful.

Sandin and Lilly probably the #1 defense pairing.

Top line would probably look something like Bunting - Kerfoot - Kase.

Yeesh.

I think Sid was second in voting this year, hardly a shut down guy.
- bixll

Wasnt it Bergeron 2nd and then Mark stone?

I could be wrong, I dont care for NHL awards.

Wasnt it Bergeron 2nd and then Mark stone?

I could be wrong, I dont care for NHL awards.
- Fakepartofme

I phoned my brother (he has dial-up internet) and asked him.

Apparently the order was:

Barkov
Bergeron
Stone
erkisson Ek
O-Rielly

Marchand was 9th
Marner 10th
Crosby 14th

https://www.hockey-refere...m/awards/voting-2021.html