44 is taken. And may be retired at the end of season.
- Peter Richards

I could see chuckles retiring 44 for Chris Stewart

I don't believe fan engagement for the Flyers necessarily hinges on winning games on the ice. A lot of the entertainment value provided by this team is in the dramatic fashion in which they fail, and the bat poop crazy things they do every summer to try to get "better". Lindros' entire career arc. The offer sheets, the huge signings, the huge trades. All the coaches sacrificed along the way. The Dry Island core explosion. Bryzgalov, lol. Fans ate all that poop up.

I'm starting to think that Hextall was actually fired for not providing that level of entertainment. There weren't leaks during his tenure, very few crises, few splashes, no public humiliation of scape goats... just a lot of normal hockey/process stuff. The fans actually became bored with the team and ownership realized they needed to bring "bias for action" back again.
- Tomahawk

I believe Snyder really cared but never used his head. $ bridged this gap till salary cap, and then he didn't have the $ to subsitute for lack of planning any more. I do think those trades etc were well intentioned, not just for entertainment.

But these Comcast dudes, I find it very, very, very hard to believe they are just well-intentioned but misguided/unlucky. I mean, they are a publicly traded company, for crying out loud. They have probably broken down the source of every nickel using fifty different pieces of software.

Here is a question for you: what if management levels with fans, and says: we screwed up, and need to rebuild. Its going to be a few bad years but if you care, please help us see it through.

Think it might work?

I just showed you evidence of a business gaining a gigantic monetary windfall all the while showing very, very little interest in winning on the playing field.

In as much as it is a business, and their central role is to make money after all, what do you mean "what's that matter?"
- PT21

An NFL teams value continues to rise over the last 20 years ? Does it have anything to do with the overall money that a team like Washington makes despite its poor on field results? Nothing to do with its location? It’s supporting fan base that still fills the stadiums? If your argument had merit you would have to discount how many coach’s, GM’s, front office guys Dan Snider has fired yet still had to pay. You can’t equate not caring to ineptness.
I believe both the TWFT and the Flyers spend to the cap and always have….if it was all about profit why would they do this? If the fans are going to come anyways?
The best example is the Toronto Maple Leafs…they spend, spend, spend. The fans have come, will always come, will always support despite absolutely no success for a very long time. The value of that franchise continues to rise.
I would suggest every NFL teams value has increased although not to that %…which is in my view more to do with the location and the Fan base and absolutely nothing to do with the teams record. I would also suggest if TWFT was the three time defending Super Bowl Champs they would even have a higher value….

Snyder has beaten the trend very, very handsomely in the past decade

- PT21

https://www.statista.com/...gton-redskins-since-2006/

Exactly, the cost of inputting an inferior product in the ice is much bigger than the gain of the team going through that and eventually coming a great team 5 years down the road. It’s much easier to stay status quo and probably more cost effective
- ClaudeFather

You know this how? I was at a game in TB before they became a good team. The place was empty. As they got better and won, their business took off.

I believe Snyder really cared but never used his head. $ bridged this gap till salary cap, and then he didn't have the $ to subsitute for lack of planning any more. I do think those trades etc were well intentioned, not just for entertainment.
- PT21

I'm not saying any of that was done cynically. They actually believed those moves would help, lol.

What I am saying is that the way the Flyers do business was(is) immensely entertaining and probably a big reason for their popularity.

Here is a question for you: what if management levels with fans, and says: we screwed up, and need to rebuild. Its going to be a few bad years but if you care, please help us see it through.

Think it might work?
- PT21

As long as STUFF WAS STILL HAPPENING (heads rolling, finger pointing, drama and upheaval), I think the fanbase wouldn't care if the team sucked on the ice for awhile because they'd still be entertained.

But if they ever got "boring" again during the process, I think their house of cards could go kaput.

An NFL teams value continues to rise over the last 20 years ? Does it have anything to do with the overall money that a team like Washington makes despite its poor on field results? Nothing to do with its location? It’s supporting fan base that still fills the stadiums? If your argument had merit you would have to discount how many coach’s, GM’s, front office guys Dan Snider has fired yet still had to pay. You can’t equate not caring to ineptness.
I believe both the TWFT and the Flyers spend to the cap and always have….if it was all about profit why would they do this? If the fans are going to come anyways?
The best example is the Toronto Maple Leafs…they spend, spend, spend. The fans have come, will always come, will always support despite absolutely no success for a very long time. The value of that franchise continues to rise.
I would suggest every NFL teams value has increased although not to that %…which is in my view more to do with the location and the Fan base and absolutely nothing to do with the teams record. I would also suggest if TWFT was the three time defending Super Bowl Champs they would even have a higher value….
- landros 2

All I was saying with WFT is that teams can increase profits very substantially without caring about winning.

Now, could they increase profits further? Sure. But what if doing so risks what they have? Much of what Snyder has done is to reduce that franchise to a corporate spectacle exercise, both in the running of the team and the culture surrounding it.

What if winning means doing things the Belichick way, with a boring attention to detail, and the corporate bigwigs don't have access to jamborees and get bored and so on?

All I was saying with WFT is that teams can increase profits very substantially without caring about winning.

Now, could they increase profits further? Sure. But what if doing so risks what they have? Much of what Snyder has done is to reduce that franchise to a corporate spectacle exercise, both in the running of the team and the culture surrounding it.

What if winning means doing things the Belichick way, with a boring attention to detail, and the corporate bigwigs don't have access to jamborees and get bored and so on?
- PT21

aif the team gets bad enough fans will stop showing up

Exactly, the cost of inputting an inferior product in the ice is much bigger than the gain of the team going through that and eventually coming a great team 5 years down the road. It’s much easier to stay status quo and probably more cost effective
- ClaudeFather

Yep. Publicly traded companies are loathe to show negative y/y results. Investors don't care if the Flyers win the Cup, either.

Dave Scott is currently amazed that even though the team has lost nine straight games, they are not on a 9 game losing streak
- corduroy

lol!

I'm not saying any of that was done cynically. They actually believed those moves would help, lol.

What I am saying is that the way the Flyers do business was(is) immensely entertaining and probably a big reason for their popularity.


- Tomahawk

Why don't I feel like I've been immensely entertained last season and this one?

You know this how? I was at a game in TB before they became a good team. The place was empty. As they got better and won, their business took off.
- MJL

That part is important. The WFC is not empty now. Not much room for incremental revenue as compared to your Tampa example.

All I was saying with WFT is that teams can increase profits very substantially without caring about winning.


- PT21

What you haven't done is actually show or provide any evidence that the Flyers or any other sports team doesn't care about winning.

aif the team gets bad enough fans will stop showing up
- 2Real

That was part of my point in the original example. If winning very likely needs to be preceded by doing badly (to get high picks), and this means loss of revenue, what's the incentive of a business facing a sure, large loss of revenue to gain future sales which are both random and incremental compared to loss?

That part is important. The WFC is not empty now. Not much room for incremental revenue as compared to your Tampa example.
- Scoob

Actually there is. A better team gets better TV ratings and can get a better TV contract. They can charge more for TV ads. Sell more season tickets and more suites. Better team make the playoffs and the further they go in the playoffs, the more revenue they earn.

yea it's not that they don't want to win it's they're too incompetent to
- 2Real

I think this more realist than “ownership and management don’t care”.

That was part of my point in the original example. If winning very likely needs to be preceded by doing badly (to get high picks), and this means loss of revenue, what's the incentive of a business facing a sure, large loss of revenue to gain future sales which are both random and incremental compared to loss?
- PT21

In floating your narrative, you label the loss from doing badly a sure thing despite the past showing the teams attendance not changing much during losing years. You then label future revenue as random and incremental with no substance whatsoever to support that.

I'm not saying any of that was done cynically. They actually believed those moves would help, lol.

What I am saying is that the way the Flyers do business was(is) immensely entertaining and probably a big reason for their popularity.



As long as STUFF WAS STILL HAPPENING (heads rolling, finger pointing, drama and upheaval), I think the fanbase wouldn't care if the team sucked on the ice for awhile because they'd still be entertained.

But if they ever got "boring" again during the process, I think their house of cards could go kaput.
- Tomahawk

Maybe that is why there is this mystifying Giroux hate. He is quietly very good. The attention goes to the first part.

It was a rhetorical question, really. No corporate mgmt or politican ever admits they screwed up in policy. Even when it is obvious. It's the kiss of death for their careers.

Actually there is. A better team gets better TV ratings and can get a better TV contract. They can charge more for TV ads. Better team make the playoffs and the further they go in the playoffs, the more revenue they earn.
- MJL

The corporate guys will weigh cost vs opportunity and the risks/hurdles to financial success. A project that doesn't meet the corporate required return on investment won't be approved.

All I was saying with WFT is that teams can increase profits very substantially without caring about winning.

Now, could they increase profits further? Sure. But what if doing so risks what they have? Much of what Snyder has done is to reduce that franchise to a corporate spectacle exercise, both in the running of the team and the culture surrounding it.

What if winning means doing things the Belichick way, with a boring attention to detail, and the corporate bigwigs don't have access to jamborees and get bored and so on?
- PT21

The Belichick way….draft Tom Brady. Lol.

What the WFT shows is what the product of the NFL is worth in a market like Washington. Despite ineptness…despite making so many wrong decisions Snyder has an asset worth that. Winning would only add to its value.
Now if your argument is more about a team like the Coyotes who know full well they are not going to win this year, but also know in their market they must show improvement to keep fans engaged then ya not every team tries to win every year. But every teams ultimate goal should be to win….because winning only adds to the value of a franchise.

The corporate guys will weigh cost vs opportunity and the risks/hurdles to financial success. A project that doesn't meet the corporate required return on investment won't be approved.
- Scoob

True…if fans stopped showing up for Flyer games I’m pretty sure the Flyers wouldn’t remain a top of the cap team.

Actually there is. A better team gets better TV ratings and can get a better TV contract. They can charge more for TV ads. Better team make the playoffs and the further they go in the playoffs, the more revenue they earn.
- MJL

Size of new TV deals tend to be strongly correlated with market size, and not team performance. And in the Flyers' case, there's no competition to drive up the price since Comcast owns the team.

AFAIK, the Flyers already charge a premium for tickets, ads, sponsorships and licensing. They could conceivably charge even more if they won championships, but it would be a marginal increase only.

Why don't I feel like I've been immensely entertained last season and this one?
- MJL

You and I are process junkies. We actually preferred Hexy's tenure lol.

What exactly will we know? What is the goal? Just to have an improved team? Or to build towards becoming a true contender and winning a Stanley Cup?
- MJL

Well, the only way building a true contender happens in my opinion is do a further reset, because this group is not going to get it done.

There is reality and there is fantasy. UFA's like Panarin don't come around often in the current NHL climate. Neither do unsigned UFA's like Fox. Both players are major keys to the Rangers rise. To rely on that and to think that your team can replicate that, is what the issue is. You're trying to make it like people are misconstruing what you post. That is not happening. You're just being called out for what you posted.
- MJL

You are such a ^&** its not funny. Sorry folks, let's pack it up and leave town, the Flyers have NO SHOT of getting better players .. Apparently the Rangers have taken them all! You can be so an ass sometimes, always looking to make others look bad. What a small person you must be!