I just looked at some stats.

Take a look at top 5 teams past 5 years (those filters arbitrarily chosen) in pp

Regular season:



Post season:



Look at the degree of skilled personnel on those teams. You have to admit, the correlation is pretty strong, no?
- PT21

You can look back through the entire history of the NHL at the top PP % teams. You'll find the same thing. However if you don't look and consider teams with a high degree of skill and a poor PP%, then you haven't done a complete analysis.

Judging the effectiveness of decisions without considering the outcome is illogical and certainly not rational. The only caveat there is here is that we don't know if this is a new issue or involving the original issue or issues.
- MJL

Perhaps, according to you. But all medical, financial, scientific and legal decisions and judgments are based precisely on this bedrock principle.

You are totally missed my point and want to go off in another direction. No thanks.
- NC Flyers Fan

He's having an issue following your logical argument.

Perhaps, according to you. But all medical, financial, scientific and legal decisions and judgments are based precisely on this bedrock principle.
- PT21

This is a hockey discussion and about how a fan would look at a decision team management made. Having trouble following the context?

I think about just before Simmonds was traded. A career net front presence and the best in the business at it. Pushed to the slot position for JvR to play the crease. Hakstol and his staff never caught on but Simmonds would have had a better fighting chance if things went the opposite way and our coaching staff had a clue. It’s about handedness, structure and working towards strength. The Flyers PP hasn’t had a structure in years. They just put. Whomever on the ice. In what world should Travis Konency act as a net front presence or play in the slot/bumper position? Konency is a half wall player. He’s good with the puck, he needs to be apart of moving it around.
- SuperSchennBros

Maybe they need to try MacEwen at net front. So MacEwen, G, JVR, Farabee and your choice LD option.

Second unit the kids—Lindblom-Frost-TK plus other LD and Risto/Ellis.

You are totally missed my point and want to go off in another direction. No thanks.
- NC Flyers Fan

Your point was that Flyers have the personnel to do well in the pp. Am I correct?

Maybe they need to try MacEwen at net front. So MacEwen, G, JVR, Farabee and your choice LD option.

Second unit the kids—Lindblom-Frost-TK plus other LD and Risto/Ellis.
- NC Flyers Fan

It really doesn't matter who have at the net front spot if you don't get the puck to the net.

Maybe they need to try MacEwen at net front. So MacEwen, G, JVR, Farabee and your choice LD option.

Second unit the kids—Lindblom-Frost-TK plus other LD and Risto/Ellis.
- NC Flyers Fan

The guy standing in the crease is the least of the PP’s issues. The real problem is the lack of structure and lack of creativity. Every time JvR has been taken off the top until within the last couple seasons and everything else stays the same, it’s been a cop out.

Your point was that Flyers have the personnel to do well in the pp. Am I correct?
- PT21

G, Yandle and JVR all have PP skills you can clearly see in their careers. My point is about usage—the formation of the unit as a whole. Obviously, they do have some up and comers like Farabee but yes, I believe he has the skill to do well. The results are not showing because the planning isn’t consistently good. SSB explained the history of it’s diminished capabilities pretty well. Results changed when usage changed, and it became dysfunctional.

The guy standing in the crease is the least of the PP’s issues. The real problem is the lack of structure and lack of creativity. Every time JvR has been taken off the top until within the last couple seasons and everything else stays the same, it’s been a cop out.
- SuperSchennBros

Then what is stopping them from trying a bigger RH guy at net front for the last few years…no offense to Atkinson and TK this season. If it doesn’t matter then do it and then everyone else can play their role. Move the puck faster and shooting lanes open.
Voila!

G, Yandle and JVR all have PP skills you can clearly see in their careers. My point is about usage—the formation of the unit as a whole. Obviously, they do have some up and comers like Farabee but yes, I believe he has the skill to do well. The results are not showing because the planning isn’t consistently good. SSB explained the history of it’s diminished capabilities pretty well. Results changed when usage changed, and it became dysfunctional.
- NC Flyers Fan

I was addressing your point then. Simply by pointing out that teams that tend to do very well in the pp in any given time period, tend to have forwards who do very well in even strength in the same time period.

In other words, some (casual) statistical evidence that we may not have the right personnel.

I was addressing your point then. Simply by pointing out that teams that tend to do very well in the pp in any given time period, tend to have forwards who do very well in even strength in the same time period.

In other words, some (casual) statistical evidence that we may not have the right personnel.
- PT21

What happened to just being able to talk about the PP? Top players are normally top players in all situations. Do we really need statistical evidence to know that?

Maybe they need to try MacEwen at net front. So MacEwen, G, JVR, Farabee and your choice LD option.

Second unit the kids—Lindblom-Frost-TK plus other LD and Risto/Ellis.
- NC Flyers Fan

I get your point. I don’t think his hands are fast enough.

It really doesn't matter who have at the net front spot if you don't get the puck to the net.
- MJL

IMO the trigger man at the top has plagued this team for some time. Whether it was Pronger, Kimmo, streit, it was good. Ghost obviously had a couple great years then he could never find the net with his shot. Provy is just not cut out to be that guy and Yandle is cooked. Not the only issue but a major one.

I get your point. I don’t think his hands are fast enough.
- Peter Richards

Then get someone because Allison is not available. This has gone on far too long.

What happened to just being able to talk about the PP? Top players are normally top players in all situations. Do we really need statistical evidence to know that?
- MJL

I was actually still just talking about only the pp. I dunno how often you want me to clarify the same thing. One last attempt (=> means implies, ES is even strength)

1. Good pp => likely (but not certain) good ES performance of forwards on that pp.

This means:

2. Not good ES forwards on pp => likely (but not certain) not good pp.

This means:

3. Teams that don't have good ES forwards are likely (but not certain) to have problems in the pp not because of coaching, or structure, or positioning but lack of those personnel (the high performing ES forwards).

Then get someone because Allison is not available. This has gone on far too long.
- NC Flyers Fan

JVR is still one of the best PP net players in the league. Their issue is zone entries and puck movement.

I was actually still just talking about only the pp. I dunno how often you want me to clarify the same thing. One last attempt (=> means implies, ES is even strength)

1. Good pp implies likely (but not certain) good ES performance of forwards on that pp.

This means:

2. Not good ES forwards on pp => likely (but not certain) not good pp.

This means:

3. Teams that don't have good ES forwards are likely (but not certain) to have problems in the pp not because of coaching, or structure, or positioning but lack of those personnel (the high performing ES forwards).
- PT21

So was I in a previous post. Yet that didn't stop you from claiming that I couldn't follow along. Again, you have to look at both sides of things. In regards to your original incorrect opinion, in my opinion, that individual trumps team play. It doesn't. Not on the PP or any other situation. You can have a high skill level. If they don't operate as a team and as a cohesive unit, they won't have success

The guy standing in the crease is the least of the PP’s issues. The real problem is the lack of structure and lack of creativity. Every time JvR has been taken off the top until within the last couple seasons and everything else stays the same, it’s been a cop out.
- SuperSchennBros

Back to this…I think the net front might be the only PP personnel issue. They had used Patrick there to some success. I know you say it’s the least of their structure issues, but I think it’s important. Who do they have for that role?

How about a more harmless possubility: his ailments were not dire enough to sit him. They tried him out. Either he was more ineffective than they thought he would be, or the injuries did not heal/worsened more than they were expectd to.

Just spitballing here. I just don't see why this is such a smoking gun for the Flyers (dis)organization.
- PT21

It's not.

So was I in a previous post. Yet that didn't stop you from claiming that I couldn't follow along. Again, you have to look at both sides of things. In regards to your original incorrect opinion, in my opinion, that individual trumps team play. It doesn't. Not on the PP or any other situation. You can have a high skill level. If they don't operate as a team and as a cohesive unit, they won't have success
- MJL

I did not say anything about anything trumping anything. I said that high producing forwards might be necessary for a good pp, and we don't have those.

Its not just a question of guys getting older, like Roo. It is also a question of them getting overexposed, and tendencies becoming very well known. Its hard to develop new tendencies in your thirties after 12+ years of doing something different. He might have been a very good pp player in the past, and may actually have the same skills. They are just being anticipated, read and snuffed out.

JVR is still one of the best PP net players in the league. Their issue is zone entries and puck movement.
- MJL

Not to say they don’t have issues with zone entries, they do. When they have possession and pass around and no one but G shoots, it is really problematic. Screening the goalie feels like the first step to me and when you skip that nothing looks right. Maybe the shot openings aren’t their for the shooter. Havoc is not happening to put defenders out of position, etc.

Back to this…I think the net front might be the only PP personnel issue. They had used Patrick there to some success. I know you say it’s the least of their structure issues, but I think it’s important. Who do they have for that role?
- NC Flyers Fan

Imo, they really need to move faster, interchange positions and pass faster to open up those lanes. Having a player like Leclair or even Simmer in his prime in front of the net would help, but teams score less goals these days that way than they used to. The puck still has to get to the paint. Defenders have become so damn good at gaming the angles, that you need to create that lane. Imo, their problem is at the top of the pp, not near the goal.

Imo, they really need to move faster, interchange positions and pass faster to open up those lanes. Having a player like Leclair or even Simmer in his prime in front of the net would help, but teams score less goals these days that way than they used to. The puck still has to get to the paint. Defenders have become so damn good at gaming the angles, that you need to create that lane. Imo, their problem is at the top of the pp, not near the goal.
- PT21

What’s the issue with using JVR at the bumper then (on a regular basis)? If it isn’t as important who is screening the goalie. Not to mention the handedness issue on tips.

I did not say anything about anything trumping anything. I said that high producing forwards might be necessary for a good pp, and we don't have those.


- PT21

Here is the statement that you made and it is a incorrect one in my opinion.
"
And teams that do well with "team play" rather than individual talent often end up getting stifled during playoffs."

The Flyers have players who have been and are still capable of high production on the PP.

Its not just a question of guys getting older, like Roo. It is also a question of them getting overexposed, and tendencies becoming very well known. Its hard to develop new tendencies in your thirties after 12+ years of doing something different. He might have been a very good pp player in the past, and may actually have the same skills. They are just being anticipated, read and snuffed out.
- PT21

The all time leading PP goal scorer in the league has arguably the most over exposed tendency in league history on the PP. If there weren't legitimate threats on the PP away from that player, then a team could slant their coverage and take him away. However when you have a team of effective PP players and many options and threats, they can't do that. Even with a known tendency, when you execute. move the puck well and create options. You create opportunities for players. You've inadvertently without even realizing it, argued against yourself and your previous statement that team play gets stifled.