What York did there was demonstrate the correct compete level you need to be successful in the NHL, playing to the very end of the game no matter what the score. If more Flyers did this and came to the rink with this attitude, do you think they might be better than they are now?? I guarantee you Yeo and his staff noticed it. My point is, look how much more York asserts his presence and impacts the game already into his career versus Frost, and York has played with multiple defensive partners also.
- jd250

It wasn't very smart. As someone who claims to have NHL GM ability, don't you know that there different circumstances for each player? If York stays in the lineup, you will see growing pains from him also. Maybe if York dives at the puck, they might play him with some of the better offensive players on the team?

And the (frank)... if you think Jake was a negative presence, you're out of your mind. He's an absolute (frank)ing beauty and competitor and everybody he played with will tell you so.
- Tomahawk

Not talking about Jake by himself,

but if you look at Jake vs. Cam you see Jake has a little better possession stats, but has a much higher offensive zone start %. Cam however has a better HDCF% and a better XGF%.

Jake has a bit fat ZERO ES goals in the entire season. He has 1 PPG in 34 games played, and a total of 25 points, 11 of which have come in the pp. He is -6.

Cam has only 2 points in PP. He has 28 points in 36 games (much better ppg). He has scored 15 goals, 13 of which are ES, and is +10.

Based on such stats, I think we have won this trade so far, and its not close. Maybe thinks will change down the line. But for now...

It starts at the feet of the individual. A grown professional hockey player should not need the Captain to make sure they are fired up, he' not the nanny. Players need to take it upon themselves. This magical idea that Giroux is to blame for all of the team's issues is amazing. When he gets traded, who's next in line or the blame?
- Flyerz74

I don't know but I'm sure we'll pick someone quickly! :-)

Look, you're right, professional hockey players should not need motivation ideally, but clearly these guys do. Who is holding players accountable on this team? Who is holding Laughton accountable for that sloppy pass last night? Who is holding Seeler accountable for that ridiculous penalty he took to put his team further in the hole? Who is holding the team accountable for not showing up at the start of the game?? Who is holding Willman accountable for not moving his feet and putting his team down 2 men when the team just came back and tied the score?? I would really, really like to know, because these mistakes happen time and time again.

It wasn't very smart. As someone who claims to have NHL GM ability, don't you know that there different circumstances for each player? If York stays in the lineup, you will see growing pains from him also. Maybe if York dives at the puck, they might play him with some of the better offensive players on the team?
- MJL

We are already seeing growing pains from York and we will see many more, those you put up with when you see the impact this young man is making to the game already. What impact is Frost making? Most of the time I don't even know he is playing!

i always viewed him as blunt slightly cynical and pessimistic. perception is everything. how did the youngers guys take to this is my question.
- Peter Richards

He was only that way to the media when they pissed him off.

In the room he was one of the funniest guys and was always good to be around.

Not talking about Jake by himself,

but if you look at Jake vs. Cam you see Jake has a little better possession stats, but has a much higher offensive zone start %. Cam however has a better HDCF% and a better XGF%.

Jake has a bit fat ZERO ES goals in the entire season. He has 1 PPG in 34 games played, and a total of 25 points, 11 of which have come in the pp. He is -6.

Cam has only 2 points in PP. He has 28 points in 36 games (much better ppg). He has scored 15 goals, 13 of which are ES, and is +10.

Based on such stats, I think we have won this trade so far, and its not close. Maybe thinks will change down the line. But for now...
- PT21

Yes, we have won this trade BIG!!

Not talking about Jake by himself,

but if you look at Jake vs. Cam you see Jake has a little better possession stats, but has a much higher offensive zone start %. Cam however has a better HDCF% and a better XGF%.

Jake has a bit fat ZERO ES goals in the entire season. He has 1 PPG in 34 games played, and a total of 25 points, 11 of which have come in the pp. He is -6.

Cam has only 2 points in PP. He has 28 points in 36 games (much better ppg). He has scored 15 goals, 13 of which are ES, and is +10.

Based on such stats, I think we have won this trade so far, and its not close. Maybe thinks will change down the line. But for now...
- PT21

Can't assess a trade like that.

good for York but not sure that is an example of why Frost wont make it. You said it yourself, he has played up and down the lineup. I assume we all know playing on the same line, getting to know your linemates is very important.

Frost has played 17 games, up and down the lineup, by all means he is cooked. Put the kid with skill and give him 20 games.
- wcorvette

I'm on record saying I will give this season, its just so far I'm just not seeing it.

Can't assess a trade like that.
- MJL

True dat. I used a comprehensive set of stats. My bad.

I should have provided no reasoning except my own pov, ans asserted we absolutely won that trade.

That should surely seal the argument, no?

I don't know but I'm sure we'll pick someone quickly! :-)

Look, you're right, professional hockey players should not need motivation ideally, but clearly these guys do. Who is holding players accountable on this team? Who is holding Laughton accountable for that sloppy pass last night? Who is holding Seeler accountable for that ridiculous penalty he took to put his team further in the hole? Who is holding the team accountable for not showing up at the start of the game?? Who is holding Willman accountable for not moving his feet and putting his team down 2 men when the team just came back and tied the score?? I would really, really like to know, because these mistakes happen time and time again.
- jd250

If you were the leader of this team, how would you hold those players accountable?

If you were the leader of this team, how would you hold those players accountable?
- MJL

Another question asked. So shocking.

True dat. I used a comprehensive set of stats. My bad.

I should have provided no reasoning except my own pov, ans asserted we absolutely won that trade.

That should surely seal the argument, no?
- PT21

I wouldn't call the stats you used comprehensive. You're trying to compare players playing on two different teams in different situations. Each player has their strengths. Those stats can't tell you that the Flyers miss elements that Voracek brought to the team. Trades are assessed by more than just stats.

You see, this is an example of attempting to have a conversation. Rather than your reply and your attempted insult. I'm perfectly okay if you want to assert something and use absolutely in your opinions. You may use different words but you routinely do the same thing. Anything else from you in reply to me, not hockey related, will be ignored.

I wouldn't call the stats you used comprehensive. You're trying to compare players playing on two different teams in different situations. Each player has their strengths. Those stats can't tell you that the Flyers miss elements that Voracek brought to the team. Trades are assessed by more than just stats.

You see, this is an example of attempting to have a conversation. Rather than your reply and your attempted insult. I'm perfectly okay if you want to assert something and use absolutely in your opinions. You may use different words but you routinely do the same thing. Anything else from you in reply to me, not hockey related, will be ignored.
- MJL

Does Columbus miss elements Cam brought to their team?

Simple question Cliff. Would you have made that trade?

I wouldn't call the stats you used comprehensive. You're trying to compare players playing on two different teams in different situations. Each player has their strengths. Those stats can't tell you that the Flyers miss elements that Voracek brought to the team. Trades are assessed by more than just stats.

You see, this is an example of attempting to have a conversation. Rather than your reply and your attempted insult. I'm perfectly okay if you want to assert something and use absolutely in your opinions. You may use different words but you routinely do the same thing. Anything else from you in reply to me, not hockey related, will be ignored.
- MJL

Bold: And what would that more be? The color of their underoos? The hotness of their wives? Their ability to sing karaoke?

You think my comments to you are insults. Actually, they just point out that much of the time, you just blather.

Look, for instance, at the part I have underscored. Because I never said we don't miss some aspects of Voracek. I said, based on the stats, we came out ahead. The case for that seems pretty strong.

Can't assess a trade like that.
- MJL

Agreed.

One of my pet peeves is people posting that player comparison page on naturalstattrick and then saying who's this is higher than the other's w/o any context lol.

Agreed.

One of my pet peeves is people posting that player comparison page on naturalstattrick and then saying who's this is higher than the other's w/o any context lol.
- Tomahawk

So, fine, provide the context.

Context has to be something that can be measured, and moved into the domain of publicly debatable. Otherwise, there is a danger that the context is just something one pulls out and interprets according to one's moods.

Whenever I saw Voracek he would say the same...." I know. I know. We suck." I still remember him saying the team was scared in the 3rd period against Ottawa. Flyers had the lead to start the 3rd, ending up losing to an equally bad Sens in that 3rd period. As a vet, he never should have allowed the team to feel that way.

When players are with one team for so many years, sometimes, some guys become complacent. Lose a bit of an edge. Some sharpness. I think that's one reason why Voracek had to be moved and now Giroux needs to be moved at the deadline. The atmosphere needs to change. Obviously a good player. But a change needs to be made. THis team needs a shock to the system and with the salary cap, it's hard to do so as quickly as fans may want. But the primitive style NHL cap is another story for another time.

Diff. coaches. Same result.
Diff. GM. Same result.

You can't be a $8.25 cap hit and have only 1 goal in 34 games.

Jake: 1 G 24 A 25 pts minus -5
Cam 15 G 13 A 28 pts plus 10

Cam: lower cap hit. More of an all-around player. Good trade. Realistically I was hoping Cam would hit the 20 goal mark in 2 of 4 yrs left on his contract. So this season looking really good.

Bonus: Cam playing so well also makes him interesting in a potential trade. As a GM, all options need to be considered for this team.

Whenever I saw Voracek he would say the same...." I know. I know. We suck." I still remember him saying the team was scared in the 3rd period against Ottawa. Flyers had the lead to start the 3rd, ending up losing to an equally bad Sens in that 3rd period. As a vet, he never should have allowed the team to feel that way.

When players are with one team for so many years, sometimes, some guys become complacent. Lose a bit of an edge. Some sharpness. I think that's one reason why Voracek had to be moved and now Giroux needs to be moved at the deadline. The atmosphere needs to change. Obviously a good player. But a change needs to be made. THis team needs a shock to the system and with the salary cap, it's hard to do so as quickly as fans may want. But the primitive style NHL cap is another story for another time.

Diff. coaches. Same result.
Diff. GM. Same result.

You can't be a $8.25 cap hit and have only 1 goal in 34 games.

Jake: 1 G 24 A 25 pts minus -5
Cam 15 G 13 A 28 pts plus 10

Cam: lower cap hit. More of an all-around player. Good trade. Realistically I was hoping Cam would hit the 20 goal mark in 2 of 4 yrs left on his contract. So this season looking really good.

Bonus: Cam playing so well also makes him interesting in a potential trade. As a GM, all options need to be considered for this team.
- Captain_Ahab

Whenever you look at any trade, one standard applied is does it fill a need on the team or does it create a hole on the team? Atkinson is a solid player who brings some really good attributes to the team. However so did Voracek. We don't see that this trade did anything really to elevate the team. That's in part due the holes it created in the Flyers lineup that weren't filled with other moves. It was a good trade for both sides. Certainly not a deal where one team greatly got the better of the deal.

I'm on record saying I will give this season, its just so far I'm just not seeing it.
- jd250

maybe, maybe not. if you are just looking for plays, you can make a case. If you are looking for plays and potential, I can see it. Bill has described the numerous plays where they didn't score on a setup by Frost. The team is also a shxt show, you dont notice most in a good way, how the hell do you expect Frost to standout.

maybe, maybe not. if you are just looking for plays, you can make a case. If you are looking for plays and potential, I can see it. Bill has described the numerous plays where they didn't score on a setup by Frost. The team is also a shxt show, you dont notice most in a good way, how the hell do you expect Frost to standout.
- wcorvette

They expect Frost, an offensive player and playmaker to stand out while playing in the bottom 6 with the lesser offensive players on the team. Play him with more talented players and give him some time there and see what happens.

Whenever you look at any trade, one standard applied is does it fill a need on the team or does it create a hole on the team? Atkinson is a solid player who brings some really good attributes to the team. However so did Voracek. We don't see that this trade did anything really to elevate the team. That's in part due the holes it created in the Flyers lineup that weren't filled with other moves. It was a good trade for both sides. Certainly not a deal where one team greatly got the better of the deal.
- MJL

The trade did not create any holes in the FLyers lineup. The Flyers were already a bad team that missed the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

They are about to do the exact same this season.

They received a player who has a chance to score 30 goals this season. Voracek never did that.

They received a player who kills penalties and scores shorthanded goals. Voracek never did that.

They received more cap space. Voracek was eating too much cap space.

It was a good and necessary trade for the FLyers.

The rest of the FLyers roster is doing the exact thing that was expected of them. THey are not a good team. 10 years of this should be long enough for fans to come to this conclusion.

They expect Frost, an offensive player and playmaker to stand out while playing in the bottom 6 with the lesser offensive players on the team. Play him with more talented players and give him some time there and see what happens.
- MJL

I would put him in the top six for 20 games and let it roll, that should be enough to see where he is heading. I would put him with farabee and Cam once Coots is back, put G back with Coots.

in fact do it now

The trade did not create any holes in the FLyers lineup. The Flyers were already a bad team that missed the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

They are about to do the exact same this season.

They received a player who has a chance to score 30 goals this season. Voracek never did that.

They received a player who kills penalties and scores shorthanded goals. Voracek never did that.

They received more cap space. Voracek was eating too much cap space.

It was a good and necessary trade for the FLyers.

The rest of the FLyers roster is doing the exact thing that was expected of them. THey are not a good team. 10 years of this should be long enough for fans to come to this conclusion.
- Captain_Ahab

It absolutely did create holes in the Flyers lineup. The Flyers have missed Voracek's transition play, playmaking and puck carrying both at 5 on 5 and on the PP.

Voracek has had multiple 80 point seasons. Atkinson never did that. Voracek has finished in the top 5 in the NHL in points and in assists twice in his career for each category. Atkinson never did that.

The Flyers received more cap space but took on another year in term.

It was a good trade. For both sides but not a trade where the Flyers handily won

I would put him in the top six for 20 games and let it roll, that should be enough to see where he is heading. I would put him with farabee and Cam once Coots is back, put G back with Coots.

in fact do it now
- wcorvette

It absolutely did create holes in the Flyers lineup. The Flyers have missed Voracek's transition play, playmaking and puck carrying both at 5 on 5 and on the PP.

Voracek has had multiple 80 point seasons. Atkinson never did that. Voracek has finished in the top 5 in the NHL in points and in assists twice in his career for each category.

The Flyers received more cap space but took on another year in term.

It was a good trade. For both sides but not a trade where the Flyers handily won
- MJL

No the Flyers are not missing anything.

A major part of the trade was the cap space the FLyers received and desperately needed. The trade-off was the extra yr which is looking great for the Flyers right now.

Also, Giroux is not missing Jake. His stats prove it.
Farabee is not missing Jake as he is on pace to hit 22 goals in 60 games. Similar to last yrs total(20 goals in 55 games).

The rest of the lineup is doing exactly as expected. Except Couturier. But he is built like a toothpick so i'm not surprised he is hurt.

If youre going to use Jake's 80 pt seasons then you are forced to look at this:

Jake has 6 20 goal seasons.
Cam is about to have his 7th 20 goal season.(His last 2 in Columbus were shortened seasons and he was on pace to hit 20 goals in both of them. THus Cam would have 8 20 goal seasons and going on his 9th this yr.)

Cam has hit 30 goals a season twice. Including a 40 goal season.
Jake never did that or even came close.

There is nothing special about Jake. A nice player who has flaws. Bad cap hit. And one-dimensional.