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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Wrap: Bruins Beat Flyers, 3-2
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ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jan 14 @ 5:11 PM ET
No the Flyers are not missing anything.

A major part of the trade was the cap space the FLyers received and desperately needed. The trade-off was the extra yr which is looking great for the Flyers right now.

Also, Giroux is not missing Jake. His stats prove it.
Farabee is not missing Jake as he is on pace to hit 22 goals in 60 games. Similar to last yrs total(20 goals in 55 games).

The rest of the lineup is doing exactly as expected. Except Couturier. But he is built like a toothpick so i'm not surprised he is hurt.

If youre going to use Jake's 80 pt seasons then you are forced to look at this:

Jake has 6 20 goal seasons.
Cam is about to have his 7th 20 goal season.

Cam has hit 30 goals a season twice. Including a 40 goal season.
Jake never did that or even came close.

There is nothing special about Jake. A nice player who has flaws. Bad cap hit. And one-dimensional.

- Captain_Ahab

The team stinks with either guy. I’d rather have Cam. Imagine the team without his whatever how many goals we have? Who was jake setting up here exactly, a bunch of bums. No shooters. We needed a shoot first player and gave up a good playmaker to get him.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 5:14 PM ET
No the Flyers are not missing anything.

A major part of the trade was the cap space the FLyers received and desperately needed. The trade-off was the extra yr which is looking great for the Flyers right now.


- Captain_Ahab


Why does a team who really needs to rebuild, want that extra year?


Also, Giroux is not missing Jake. His stats prove it.
Farabee is not missing Jake as he is on pace to hit 22 goals in 60 games. Similar to last yrs total(20 goals in 55 games).


- Captain_Ahab


There is no guarantee that Giroux and Voracek would play together. Same with Farabee. Don't you want to see a player like Farabee progress more other than just a 2 goal increase? How do you know if they had played together that Voracek's playmaking wouldn't have increased Farabee's goal output? Maybe have helped Farabee out of the long slump he had this season?


The rest of the lineup is doing exactly as expected. Except Couturier. But he is built like a toothpick so i'm not surprised he is hurt.


- Captain_Ahab


I think you set your expectations low.



If youre going to use Jake's 80 pt seasons then you are forced to look at this:

Jake has 6 20 goal seasons.
Cam is about to have his 7th 20 goal season.

Cam has hit 30 goals a season twice. Including a 40 goal season.
Jake never did that or even came close.

There is nothing special about Jake. A nice player who has flaws. Bad cap hit. And one-dimensional.

- Captain_Ahab


I'm not forced to look at anything. You used stat totals and stated that Voracek didn't do something. I just simply replied with stats totals that Atkinson never achieved. Other than the elite players in the league, every player has flaws. I think were getting down to the nitty gritty of it. Both are good but different players. Both bring positive qualities to a team. That's the bottom line.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jan 14 @ 5:16 PM ET
Whenever I saw Voracek he would say the same...." I know. I know. We suck." I still remember him saying the team was scared in the 3rd period against Ottawa. Flyers had the lead to start the 3rd, ending up losing to an equally bad Sens in that 3rd period. As a vet, he never should have allowed the team to feel that way.

When players are with one team for so many years, sometimes, some guys become complacent. Lose a bit of an edge. Some sharpness. I think that's one reason why Voracek had to be moved and now Giroux needs to be moved at the deadline. The atmosphere needs to change. Obviously a good player. But a change needs to be made. THis team needs a shock to the system and with the salary cap, it's hard to do so as quickly as fans may want. But the primitive style NHL cap is another story for another time.

Diff. coaches. Same result.
Diff. GM. Same result.

You can't be a $8.25 cap hit and have only 1 goal in 34 games.

Jake: 1 G 24 A 25 pts minus -5
Cam 15 G 13 A 28 pts plus 10

Cam: lower cap hit. More of an all-around player. Good trade. Realistically I was hoping Cam would hit the 20 goal mark in 2 of 4 yrs left on his contract. So this season looking really good.

Bonus: Cam playing so well also makes him interesting in a potential trade. As a GM, all options need to be considered for this team.

- Captain_Ahab


People often get locked into positions that are very difficult to justify.

On a more general note, one long time pet peeve of mine is the equivalence between assists and goals in totaling points. It is on average much harder to score a goal (with the player towards whom the puck is going doing everything to stop it) than it is to provide an assist (where the player towards whom the puck is going does everything possible to make your pass a success).

At least, they should be placed in different categories, like pretty much every other sport.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 5:17 PM ET
The team stinks with either guy. I’d rather have Cam. Imagine the team without his whatever how many goals we have? Who was jake setting up here exactly, a bunch of bums. No shooters. We needed a shoot first player and gave up a good playmaker to get him.
- ClaudeFather


I'd take the 80 point Voracek but he hasn't been that player in some time. I really like Atkinson. The Flyers did need a goal scorer and I believe that Atkinson at this point is the better overall player. I just don't see that the trade was tilted significantly toward one side or the other. I think it was a good hockey trade for both sides.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 5:23 PM ET
People often get locked into positions that are very difficult to justify.

On a more general note, one long time pet peeve of mine is the equivalence between assists and goals in totaling points. It is on average much harder to score a goal (with the player towards whom the puck is going doing everything to stop it) than it is to provide an assist (where the player towards whom the puck is going does everything possible to make your pass a success).

At least, they should be placed in different categories, like pretty much every other sport.

- PT21


I disagree that it is much harder on average. The really quality playmakers in this league and over it's history create opportunities and openings for the goal scorers. They draw in defenses, create deception, freeze goaltenders and put the puck on a good shooting position for the goal scorer. A perfect example of that is the 2nd Pasternak goal on the PP. Marchand sold the shot, drew in the defense, drew Hart out for the shot and creatively passed to Pasternak. All he had to do was shoot the puck into the open net. Marchand made the play. I think it's really both. Now if you want to separate primary assists and secondary assists, I think that's valid at times. There are times where the pass is the play and there are times where the pass is routine but the goal scorer makes the play. It's both.
ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jan 14 @ 5:25 PM ET
I'd take the 80 point Voracek but he hasn't been that player in some time. I really like Atkinson. The Flyers did need a goal scorer and I believe that Atkinson at this point is the better overall player. I just don't see that the trade was tilted significantly toward one side or the other. I think it was a good hockey trade for both sides.
- MJL

I agree, it was not lopsided but I am happy from the Flyers end. Colombus could be saying the same thing.
Captain_Ahab
Joined: 03.23.2017

Jan 14 @ 5:26 PM ET
Why does a team who really needs to rebuild, want that extra year?







There is no guarantee that Giroux and Voracek would play together. Same with Farabee. Don't you want to see a player like Farabee progress more other than just a 2 goal increase? How do you know if they had played together that Voracek's playmaking wouldn't have increased Farabee's goal output? Maybe have helped Farabee out of the long slump he had this season?





I think you set your expectations low.



I'm not forced to look at anything. You used stat totals and stated that Voracek didn't do something. I just simply replied with stats totals that Atkinson never achieved. Other than the elite players in the league, every player has flaws. I think were getting down to the nitty gritty of it. Both are good but different players. Both bring positive qualities to a team. That's the bottom line.

- MJL



Fletcher was not rebuilding. Hence the trade for veteran Ellis and giving up picks to move out GHost and bringing in Rasmus.

The Flyers roster is doing as expected. Farabee does not need Voracek to develop. Talented players make others better. If Farabee is any good then he will make the players around him better. Not the other way around. Farabee is a young player who might settle in as a player who can get 25 goals a season. A few outlier seasons may exist. But I think that's who he is.


Good players. I think we may value different aspects of players games. I really like Cam's style.

And when I look closer at Cam's stats. The last 2 years in Columbus were shortened seasons. He was on pace to hit 20 goals those seasons as well. So he had a legit chance to have 8 20 goal seasons in a row. This season would have made in 9.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 5:29 PM ET
Good players. I think we may value different aspects of players games. I really like Cam's style.

And when I look closer at Cam's stats. The last 2 years in Columbus were shortened seasons. He was on pace to hit 20 goals those seasons as well. So he had a legit chance to have 8 20 goal seasons in a row. This season would have made in 9.

- Captain_Ahab



I value all aspects of play. This Flyers team has a real issue with transition play which is why they're not a good 5 on 5 team. The loss of Voracek and the Ellis injury are factors in that.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 5:45 PM ET
Fletcher was not rebuilding. Hence the trade for veteran Ellis and giving up picks to move out GHost and bringing in Rasmus.


- Captain_Ahab


He wasn't rebuilding but I wasn't aware that we could only look at a move from Fletcher's perspective. I personally think they need to rebuild and the extra year in term could be more of a hindrance than the higher cap hit with lesser term.



The Flyers roster is doing as expected. Farabee does not need Voracek to develop. Talented players make others better. If Farabee is any good then he will make the players around him better. Not the other way around. Farabee is a young player who might settle in as a player who can get 25 goals a season. A few outlier seasons may exist. But I think that's who he is.


- Captain_Ahab


According to whose expectations? Any good goal scorer can benefit from playing with a playmaker of Voracek's caliber. Not that Voracek is in his caliber of a player but look what Panarin did for Atkinson? Turned him into a 41 goal scorer. The measure of how good Farabee will ultimately be will be his play. Not every player maked player around them better.


Good players. I think we may value different aspects of players games. I really like Cam's style.

And when I look closer at Cam's stats. The last 2 years in Columbus were shortened seasons. He was on pace to hit 20 goals those seasons as well. So he had a legit chance to have 8 20 goal seasons in a row. This season would have made in 9.

- Captain_Ahab


I like Atkinson also. He's a quality player.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jan 14 @ 6:44 PM ET
I disagree that it is much harder on average. The really quality playmakers in this league and over it's history create opportunities and openings for the goal scorers. .
- MJL


I said on average. You even quoted it. And then, in the same breath, you started talking about "really quality" playmakers, who, by definition, are not average.

😭😭😭

xShoot4WarAmpsx
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joined: 06.25.2010

Jan 14 @ 7:07 PM ET
You shouldn't complain about the current flyers management if you are okay with that trade.
- iamscore2day


The Flyers were contenders then. I believe they took Tampa to 7 games that year in the conference finals. The D got decimated with injuries. Comparing it to now is craziness. Flyers are nowhere near the same position
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 7:09 PM ET
I said on average. You even quoted it. And then, in the same breath, you started talking about "really quality" playmakers, who, by definition, are not average.

😭😭😭

- PT21


This doesn't in any way support your opinion. You also didn't in your original post. You also didn't address any of my points.
PT21
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 木糠布丁, PA
Joined: 03.04.2008

Jan 14 @ 8:05 PM ET
This doesn't in any way support your opinion. You also didn't in your original post. You also didn't address any of my points.
- MJL


Have you finished editing your damn post? Every time I look, every word has been replaced.

Your "point" is not opposed to my own. I never said all goals require more skill than assists, or that there aren't highly skilled playmakers who have made a career of being arguably as important as the guy who finishes their feeds off.

Here is my informal 'proof 'of my hypothesis. Look at $ earned per point produced in NHL contracts. You will find, for example, that a typical 30 goal 20 assist guy gets paid significantly more than a 15 goal 35 assist guy. The former is a 1st line guy. The second is at best a 2nd liner. Their pay reflects that.

Both are equal on the NHL point stats. Yet clearly the NHL market thinks the former is worth more.

No, I am not going to run a regression for you to prove this. No, pointing out cherry-picked counterexamples to this is not an opposing pov.

Look at the average.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 8:30 PM ET




Here is my informal 'proof 'of my hypothesis. Look at $ earned per point produced in NHL contracts. You will find, for example, that a typical 30 goal 20 assist guy gets paid significantly more than a 15 goal 35 assist guy. The former is a 1st line guy. The second is at best a 2nd liner. Their pay reflects that.

Both are equal on the NHL point stats. Yet clearly the NHL market thinks the former is worth more.

No, I am not going to run a regression for you to prove this. No, pointing out cherry-picked counterexamples to this is not an opposing pov.

Look at the average.

- PT21


I'm going to ignore the minutia. This doesn't support your opinion either and claims facts not in evidence. You can't provide even a single example.

https://www.capfriendly.c.../2022/salary/all/forwards

I see more playmakers at the top than goal scorers.

Not to mention that this doesn't even address your original statement that it's harder to score a goal than it is to provide an assist in any way.


THE EVIL WITHIN
Location: NJ
Joined: 11.20.2017

Jan 14 @ 8:37 PM ET
Another Hex blunder Hartman scores again!
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jan 14 @ 9:31 PM ET
Another Hex blunder Hartman scores again!
- THE EVIL WITHIN


As in Hextall? Hartman was acquired by Chuck Fletcher and traded away by Chuck Fletcher.
THE EVIL WITHIN
Location: NJ
Joined: 11.20.2017

Jan 14 @ 10:03 PM ET
As in Hextall? Hartman was acquired by Chuck Fletcher and traded away by Chuck Fletcher.
- MJL

Yes thanks. One less bell to answer for Hex
SuperSchennBros
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot!
Joined: 09.01.2012

Jan 14 @ 10:20 PM ET
Another Hex blunder Hartman scores again!
- THE EVIL WITHIN

iamscore2day
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Alexandria, VA
Joined: 03.23.2021

Jan 14 @ 10:44 PM ET
As in Hextall? Hartman was acquired by Chuck Fletcher and traded away by Chuck Fletcher.
- MJL

But Hextall could have acquired him and did not. He has you there.
Phillywhiteout
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: West Chester, PA
Joined: 08.11.2020

Jan 14 @ 11:51 PM ET
Ghost with a goal tonight and was a +2 against the Avs. Played 28 minutes which was 5 more minutes than any other defender on the Yotes. Ghost's stats on the season are 7 goals and 17 assists, and he is a -8. His supposed replacement that goes by the name of Keith Yandle has ZERO goals and 13 assists, and he is a -20!!! You can't make this shyte up!!!
SuperSchennBros
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot!
Joined: 09.01.2012

Jan 14 @ 11:54 PM ET
Man I wish we traded for Nazim Kadri prior to signing Hayes. I feel was such an Unnecessary trade. Going back to the Clarke comments and im not stirring the pot. I’m not a Hextall apologist. I respect what Hextall was trying to do but nobody openly criticized Hextall more than me when Brayden Schenn was traded. I loved Schenn. He was still very young when we traded him. With this said, trading Schenn was a bad move. Signing Hayes was a bad move. If we weren’t in on Kadri when he was on the block in Toronto, bad move. It’s not a great time to be a Flyers’ fan right now. What this franchise is absolutely starving for is another Carter and Richards deal. Voracek for Atkinson in my opinion was too safe a business deal.
SuperSchennBros
Location: Not protected by the Mods...I mean Mob. Take your best shot!
Joined: 09.01.2012

Jan 15 @ 1:18 AM ET
I blame former Norris trophy nominee Mike Green for all the Shayne Gostisbehere hype. Green nominated with Duncan Keith and Drew Doughty and ahead of Chris Pronger who had his third greatest season of his career in 2010 but Green’s offensive ability is what got him the nomination. Before 2010 you had to be a Nick Lidstrom, Shea Weber or a Zdano Chara to be in talks for the Norris. Ghost is in the same league as Yandle who also was once in Norris conversation back in his day but has always been poop in his end. I’m tired of hearing about ghost. His offense was never in question. I don’t give a poop that he’s gone, he wasn’t making us better, I’ve seen plenty of 4.5 million Yandle moments out of him.
Phillywhiteout
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: West Chester, PA
Joined: 08.11.2020

Jan 15 @ 3:36 AM ET
I blame former Norris trophy nominee Mike Green for all the Shayne Gostisbehere hype. Green nominated with Duncan Keith and Drew Doughty and ahead of Chris Pronger who had his third greatest season of his career in 2010 but Green’s offensive ability is what got him the nomination. Before 2010 you had to be a Nick Lidstrom, Shea Weber or a Zdano Chara to be in talks for the Norris. Ghost is in the same league as Yandle who also was once in Norris conversation back in his day but has always been poop in his end. I’m tired of hearing about ghost. His offense was never in question. I don’t give a poop that he’s gone, he wasn’t making us better, I’ve seen plenty of 4.5 million Yandle moments out of him.
- SuperSchennBros
For the record I wanted Ghost out of here along with Voracek! I was just bringing up the stats cause it seems when guys leave this team their game recovers(not Voracek...he is who we knew he was). It's almost as if there is a dark shroud hanging over this organization. Yandle shouldn't be on the ice these days though. I don't give a rat's arse about his iron man streak. It's almost as if Hayes reached out to him and invited him to the Philly Country Club.
THE BLACK HAND
Joined: 06.09.2021

Jan 15 @ 8:16 AM ET
Man I wish we traded for Nazim Kadri prior to signing Hayes. I feel was such an Unnecessary trade. Going back to the Clarke comments and im not stirring the pot. I’m not a Hextall apologist. me when Brayden Schenn was traded. I loved Schenn. He wa I respect what Hextall was trying to do but nobody openly criticized Hextall more thans still very young when we traded him. With this said, trading Schenn was a bad move. Signing Hayes was a bad move. If we weren’t in on Kadri when he was on the block in Toronto, bad move. It’s not a great time to be a Flyers’ fan right now. What this franchise is absolutely starving for is another Carter and Richards deal. Voracek for Atkinson in my opinion was too safe a business deal.
- SuperSchennBros


Schenn is a good player but if he stayed, he would not have tipped the scale to being a contender or a yearly playoff team. On top of that, he had to be signed and i would want to pay him 7+ for however many years. He gelled wiith Schwartz and had a great year in St L but the following year when JS was hurt, his stats plummeted. Hes just a guy. Id much rather have Farabee and if Frost contributes, its a slamdunk win of a trade
Hextall271
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Hart-Land, NB
Joined: 01.18.2007

Jan 15 @ 8:17 AM ET
As in Hextall? Hartman was acquired by Chuck Fletcher and traded away by Chuck Fletcher.
- MJL


Haha. That’s a good one. Hartman another hexy blunder. Made me laugh.

On a positive note, we are going to get crushed tonight unless our goaltender plays out of their mind. In which case we’ll lose 3 2. I have every confidence we’ll reach 10 losses in a row again. That’s a franchise record. Two double digit losing streaks in a one year.
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