im open to the idea of cutting the team slack for "rushing players". that can be a tough line to toe.

however, i am with you on the archaic making skill players play down to supposedly learn defense/grinding etc. that line of thinking is going to hold the flyers back organizationally moving forward. I get the sentiment, but it just doesnt fly anymore.

myers i agree with. he got yanked around a lot. provorov and couturier may have been a lot out of necessity.
- stayinthefnnet

It can be a tough line to toe but understand that it's a catch 22. The failure to draft and develop young players is what forces you at times to rush another player. It's an endless circle.

It can be a tough line to toe but understand that it's a catch 22. The failure to draft and develop young players is what forces you at times to rush another player. It's an endless circle.
- MJL

Sure. all aspects of team building compound upon each other.

same reason lack of internal aspects lead to needing to overreach in free agency etc.

Sure. all aspects of team building compound upon each other.

same reason lack of internal aspects lead to needing to overreach in free agency etc.
- stayinthefnnet

Exactly. The idea is to build a team that works together. The Flyers paid a lot over the years due to their inability and failure to draft and develop defenseman. It cost them a lot in picks and cap space. When looking at potential trades or moves, you have to consider the team aspect. Does the move fill one hole but create another. Are you trading form excess or are you trading an asset in a position of organizational weakness? So someone suggests a fantasy trade of Sanhiem for Nylander, you can look at that in a bubble and say that Nylander is obviously the better player. But when you're a team with the organizational weakness like the Flyers have with defenseman, you can't afford to deal young defenseman for forwards unless the deal was just too good to turn down. Does it reach that knowing you'll likely have to add more? You have to understand the overall effect on the team.

Exactly. The idea is to build a team that works together. The Flyers paid a lot over the years due to their inability and failure to draft and develop defenseman. It cost them a lot in picks and cap space. When looking at potential trades or moves, you have to consider the team aspect. Does the move fill one hole but create another. Are you trading form excess or are you trading an asset in a position of organizational weakness? So someone suggests a fantasy trade of Sanhiem for Nylander, you can look at that in a bubble and say that Nylander is obviously the better player. But when you're a team with the organizational weakness like the Flyers have with defenseman, you can't afford to deal young defenseman for forwards unless the deal was just too good to turn down. Does it reach that knowing you'll likely have to add more? You have to understand the overall effect on the team.
- MJL

in a sanhiem for nylander one, now it looks silly not to. but id argue sanhiem the asset now is not what he was when the trade was being discussed. he had some more untapped potential boosting his worth then. hindsight is usually an unfair lens to evaluate decisions made in that moment.

in a sanhiem for nylander one, now it looks silly not to. but id argue sanhiem the asset now is not what he was when the trade was being discussed. he had some more untapped potential boosting his worth then. hindsight is usually an unfair lens to evaluate decisions made in that moment.
- stayinthefnnet

Of course but also one has to know that it wouldn't have been Sanheim for Nylander in reality.

Of course but also one has to know that it wouldn't have been Sanheim for Nylander in reality.
- MJL

true. wonder what it would have been.

in a sanhiem for nylander one, now it looks silly not to. but id argue sanhiem the asset now is not what he was when the trade was being discussed. he had some more untapped potential boosting his worth then. hindsight is usually an unfair lens to evaluate decisions made in that moment.
- stayinthefnnet

One could argue Sanheim was another victim of the our-own-prospect hype.

Look at historical numerical averages for a Dman picked at #17. Sanheim will not just exceed such averages: he will obliterate them. He has not underperformed.

Look also at a qualitative assessment of him in his draft year: it almost exactly predicts his potential, and his likely path.

It goes back to what I was saying. It is not Sanheim that did not develop. It is that our unrealistic expectations that were belied.

By the time we were talking about this trade (fall of 2020), Nylander had started his career with 3 straight 60p season pace, and after his holdout, was already averaging a 70 point a season pace. It was absolute lunacy to not want to do such a hypothetical trade.

Of course but also one has to know that it wouldn't have been Sanheim for Nylander in reality.
- MJL

The trade was hypothetical and was discussed 1-for-1. You cannot base your objections to a hypothetical trade based on other undiscussed additionals (nor did you then). Your objections was solely based on a reluctance to trade those players one-for-one.

One could argue Sanheim was another victim of the our-own-prospect hype.

Look at historical numerical averages for a Dman picked at #17. Sanheim will not just exceed such averages: he will obliterate them. He has not underperformed.

Look also at a qualitative assessment of him in his draft year: it almost exactly predicts his potential, and his likely path.

It goes back to what I was saying. It is not Sanheim that did not develop. It is that our unrealistic expectations that were belied.

By the time we were talking about this trade (fall of 2020), Nylander had started his career with 3 straight 60p season pace, and after his holdout, was already averaging a 70 point a season pace. It was absolute lunacy to not want to do such a hypothetical trade.


- PT21

at a certain point though, every team has players that out kick their projection coverage. that simply has to happen sometimes for successful teams.

Fine, name the debate .. I won just about all of them .. so no worries from my side.
- jd250

Dementia and Senility

eh. its a wide swath out there. just because im not married doesnt mean im single haha

i wont turn this into a relationship forum, but if you prioritize your person and treat them with what you would want, that takes you home a lot. find someone who doesnt sweat the small stuff, or who at least shares a similar view of what the small stuff is as you do.

that being said, despite my reshuffling of the deck chairs on the titantic to put the drinks before the shower, neither would have cut the line in front of a welcome home hug/kiss for the girl haha
- stayinthefnnet

Never listen to an avowed racist like the guy who you responded too

Dementia and Senility
- THE BLACK HAND

just
dumb
250

One could argue Sanheim was another victim of the our-own-prospect hype.

Look at historical numerical averages for a Dman picked at #17. Sanheim will not just exceed such averages: he will obliterate them. He has not underperformed.

Look also at a qualitative assessment of him in his draft year: it almost exactly predicts his potential, and his likely path.

It goes back to what I was saying. It is not Sanheim that did not develop. It is that our unrealistic expectations that were belied.


- PT21

Lets consider some of the statements made. Has Sanheim been successful at the NHL level quarterbacking a PP? One can argue he hasn't been given much opportunity but perhaps because he hasn't shown that potential at the NHL level. Sanheim certainly isn't on par in anyway with Dougie Hamilton. We've seen glimpses of the top end potential from Sanheim but no where near the consistency to meet that potential. The ability and skill set is there.
You state that he didn't meet "our" unrealistic expectations but fail to quantify what exactly those are. If you read that scouting report, it seems that what you're implying about "our" unrealistic expectations is not correct. It seems as though you are not correct in that regard.

The trade was hypothetical and was discussed 1-for-1. You cannot base your objections to a hypothetical trade based on other undiscussed additionals (nor did you then). Your objections was solely based on a reluctance to trade those players one-for-one.
- PT21

You don't speak for me nor do you get to tell me what my objections were based on. It was obvious and implied that it wouldn't be a one on one deal and would involve the Flyers having to add. My objections were based on the Flyers organizational needs and how critical drafting and developing young defenseman was to the franchise. Rather than just looking a the deal in a "fantasy bubble" and who the obviously better individual player was.

You don't speak for me nor do you get to tell me what my objections were based on. It was obvious and implied that it wouldn't be a one on one deal and would involve the Flyers having to add. My objections were based on the Flyers organizational needs and how critical drafting and developing young defenseman was to the franchise. Rather than just looking a the deal in a "fantasy bubble" and who the obviously better individual player was.
- MJL

Sadly, he does think that he can. He is smarter than you (us) and he will go to any length to let us all know

Sadly, he does think that he can. He is smarter than you (us) and he will go to any length to let us all know
- corduroy

You know, really smart people don't have to tell anyone that they're really smart. People will already know.

Allison another one

at a certain point though, every team has players that out kick their projection coverage. that simply has to happen sometimes for successful teams.
- stayinthefnnet

The young guy on the other team you are trading for has projections too, no? They exceed that of your own young guy. The other guy also has a past that exceeds that of your guy. These things need to be based on rationality.

I recall our friend had a statement: Toronto "would kill to have our young defense".

Fast forward to now, just 14 months later. Of that young defense: Ghost+Hagg+Sanheim+Myers+Friedman would not collectively bring back WN today, who btw, has been their best forward in 2 successive playoffs now.

On a more general note: there is a tendency I notice among Flyers fans which I do not see among say Eagles fans. A feeling that we have outsmarted the market with trades/picks.

Consider:

Dopita: best player not in NHL right now. We got a steal.
Schenn: Best prospect in NHL right now. We got a steal.
Ghost: future Eric Karlsson: We got a steal.
Myers: Cannot believe he was undrafted. Future 1RHD. Steal
Laughton: If there was a redraft, he would go top 10. Steal
Frost: Future Giroux. Steal
Hart: Future Vezina. Steal in the 3rd round
Couts: Top 10 1c. Indispensable.

Meanwhile, you notice that the external world has a somewhat different opinion. That's ok but what is galling is that they are right much more often than we are.
To paraphrase Gloria Swanson: Its not the players who turned to be too small. Its the picture that was always too big for them.

Those players are why I am skeptical that Flyers lack development mojo for their youth.

Schenn went on to be 1C in a cup team
Couts went on to win Selke
Simmer became a legit 1st line power forward.

Looking around, Farabee and TK are likely going to be top 6 forwards, possible top line, in most teams. Provorov is legit 1st pairing. Sanheim, York are going to be average if not better top 4. Lindblom and Ghost have already beaten expectations.

Other than NP, I don't really see much evidence that Flyers under perform in development relative to trend expectations for where they draft. Every team has misses.

Its not the polish that is lacking. It is the quality of the gem.
- PT21

You don't speak for me nor do you get to tell me what my objections were based on. It was obvious and implied that it wouldn't be a one on one deal and would involve the Flyers having to add. My objections were based on the Flyers organizational needs and how critical drafting and developing young defenseman was to the franchise. Rather than just looking a the deal in a "fantasy bubble" and who the obviously better individual player was.
- MJL

Its called the public record, amigo. I don't intend to speak for you. The problem is, neither does the blank spaces around your posts of that time which contained all those other considerations that never leapt from your mighty mind to public post.

- THE BLACK HAND

He was 1C on their depth chart and in practices. ROR was not.

Lineups can be found in many places, such as this (scroll down):

https://www.nbcsports.com...gs-bruins-vs-blues-game-1

The young guy on the other team you are trading for has projections too, no? They exceed that of your own young guy. The other guy also has a past that exceeds that of your guy. These things need to be based on rationality.

I recall our friend had a statement: Toronto "would kill to have our young defense".

Fast forward to now, just 14 months later. Of that young defense: Ghost+Hagg+Sanheim+Myers+Friedman would not collectively bring back WN today, who btw, has been their best forward in 2 successive playoffs now.

On a more general note: there is a tendency I notice among Flyers fans which I do not see among say Eagles fans. A feeling that we have outsmarted the market with trades/picks.

Consider:

Dopita: best player not in NHL right now. We got a steal.
Schenn: Best prospect in NHL right now. We got a steal.
Ghost: future Eric Karlsson: We got a steal.
Myers: Cannot believe he was undrafted. Future 1RHD. Steal
Laughton: If there was a redraft, he would go top 10. Steal
Frost: Future Giroux. Steal
Hart: Future Vezina. Steal in the 3rd round
Couts: Top 10 1c. Indispensable.

Meanwhile, you notice that the external world has a somewhat different opinion. That's ok but what is galling is that they are right much more often than we are.
To paraphrase Gloria Swanson: Its not the players who turned to be too small. Its the picture that was always too big for them.
- PT21

i wont spill much ink trying to describe flyers fans as typically rational, fair folks but lets also not act like on here is akin to wading through the xfinity live sewage for the most part.

i do think a lot of it is just being starved for a while for top end talent. its normal as fans to get excited and be quick to don the rose colored glasses. still, there was a time when most of those descriptions werent totally out of whack, at least for a moment. its just a matter of how quickly you apply the label and how stubborn you are to rip it off when its not truly sticking. specifically with the defense, it was held in pretty high esteem around the league. guys just did not pan, at least to the potential. it happens. by mathematics, not everyone will hit.

i remember when olli maatta was about as shoe in as they come for top four stud.

i wont spill much ink trying to describe flyers fans as typically rational, fair folks but lets also not act like on here is akin to wading through the xfinity live sewage for the most part.

i do think a lot of it is just being starved for a while for top end talent. its normal as fans to get excited and be quick to don the rose colored glasses. still, there was a time when most of those descriptions werent totally out of whack, at least for a moment. its just a matter of how quickly you apply the label and how stubborn you are to rip it off when its not truly sticking. specifically with the defense, it was held in pretty high esteem around the league. guys just did not pan, at least to the potential. it happens. by mathematics, not everyone will hit.

i remember when olli maatta was about as shoe in as they come for top four stud.
- stayinthefnnet

That's just the thing: On the contrary, those guys performed exactly where their NHL draft positions indicated they would. Not a single one under-performed. NP did, sure but not on defense. Everyone of them met or surpassed historical averages for their draft position.

It wasn't the players. It was the hype surrounding them.

normal married guys do not post 24/7 on a hockey website.
- hello it's me 2050

Youre lack of self awareness is mindnumbing

That's just the thing: On the contrary, those guys performed exactly where their NHL draft positions indicated they would. Not a single one under-performed. NP did, sure but not on defense. Everyone of them met or surpassed historical averages for their draft position.

It wasn't the players. It was the hype surrounding them.
- PT21

thats tough though, because by pure mathematical odds, why even draft? its a virtual crapshoot out of the top 20. just getting in 3 or 4 seasons puts a player after that as a mathematical success.