This should be an easy concept
- Santo_44

Just like when the Rangers moved up to get Schneider

So am I. When I see the phrase consensus BPA, I don't belive we are talking specific to an organization that does have their itemized and prioritized list and the BPA, or at least a grouping (hence trading down, because you have a group of 5 players who are all basically indiscernible in your ratings from one another, so you'll get a guy you want anyway). We are talking that when it comes to ranking prospects there is no one scouting organization's rankings that precedes another. Perhaps someone like McKeen's is less respected than ISS, but ISS isn't the defacto consensus either.

Typically most everyone can agree upon the top 3 or 4 in a draft, sometimes as deep as 5 or 6, but very early into the draft process every respected organization and outlet starts to vary in their rankings of the prospects.
- Monkeypunk

Thank you.

I agree . We should pick top pairing, ready to contribute now, difference making D with our late first round picks.
- Canada Cup

I don't recall making that argument.

To be fair once you get past the first 3 or 4 in any given draft, there really isn't _consensus_ on BPA. Somewhere in there you have ISS, CSS, European Rankings, North American Rankings and these don't agree with one another let alone each NHL team's internal scouting and assessments.

That said, while they are taking their time and allowing their players to develop, I'm relatively pleased with the progress of a number of prospects.

We don't have that punishing guy that some would like, but we do have a number of skilled players who should have value one way or another.
- Monkeypunk

To pull it back to my point, regardless of international scouting organizations, teams create their own rankings and make a judgement who the best player is that is on the board, if there is one.

The draft is as much about value as it is about needs... value is super important in a league where half of all players make it to the NHL (making it being defined as playing a single game)

IMO

I don't recall making that argument.
- fifty__missions

https://www.habseyesonthe...athletic-hockey-prospects

MTL 1?..How many points you got?
- nbboy

8580

Going to be an interesting run leading up to the deadline and what Dubas can and will do. I don't believe for two seconds what he says to the media. He knows the value of cone of silence on his moves and learned from Lou there. We had NO inkling or word he was getting a D from the Yotes for instance. Reading tea leaves yeah he will look at a move for defence, but he was also looking at a winger. Might pull off both and or shore up goaltending too.

Hopefully they can win tonight too so I don't feel bad about rooting for the Kraken on tuesday

8580
- winsix

8662

Thank you.
- fifty__missions

So while I will reiterate that while I probably would have been leaning towards Schneider or Guhle myself and I didn't have a problem with Amirov, we have to remember both that our prospect pool was pretty shallow in 2020 and any player you draft after that 10 spot is often a 3-4 year project. While I acknowledge that Schneider is playing for the Rangers, I'm not sure he would have been playing in the Leafs' organization which is trying to spend more time ensuring adequate development of the players in the OHL and AHL levels. Faster to the NHL isn't equitable between organizations and we can all agree on that - THAT Schneider appears to be an NHL'er is certainly something we can agree on.

At the time of the draft in 2020 the Leafs had Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares as their real core 4. They had Hyman and Kerfoot as well who are more skilled than bottom-6 guys. On D they had Rielly, Muzzin, Holl and Dermott. It wasn't until a month after the draft that they signed Bogosian and Brodie to fill out the D.

But even at forward, our prospect pool was thin. If we wanted to get some young blood to come in and make it possible to move one of the ginormous contracts in the Core-4, we'd need someone with a high ceiling. There's the swing for Amirov - with proper development, he could be our ELC replacement for Nylander who's a UFA in 2024.

Prospects in the pipeline at the 2020 draft:
Liljegren - probably ready in 2022
Sandin - probably ready in 2021
Robertson - probably ready in 2022

Players who have taken large steps in the past year but who weren't really considered legitimate in 2020:
- Holmberg
- Abramov
- Abruzzese

Guys drafted after Amirov was taken who are in the pipeline now:
- Niemela
- Hirvonen
- Miettinen
- Ovchinnikov
- Rindell
- Knies
- Voit

I think ultimately, you want that role - someone who does that mean nasty-ass poop that makes someone pay for being near the net. That role we don't have and it's obvious we're missing. I'm not sure it works in the Leafs' system. I'm not sure it doesn't either. I don't think Schneider or Guhle ever develop into top-pairing players, but they can make a difference and likely should end up as top-4 guys. I mean to double-down a little on how I feel, I think this team's defensive core is as good as any under Quinn and they have a similar puck movement focus.

This team is better than the ones that had success in the late 90's. The real difference and this is Dubas' real myopia: Quinn knew goalies. I'm not sure if it's on Briere or a different scout or Dubas himself, but this management team is not having great success with goalies.

8662
- dmnted

17 wins

Boston about to knock the Leafs into a Wild Card spot.

Should Dubas be waiting?

To pull it back to my point, regardless of international scouting organizations, teams create their own rankings and make a judgement who the best player is that is on the board, if there is one.

The draft is as much about value as it is about needs... value is super important in a league where half of all players make it to the NHL (making it being defined as playing a single game)

IMO
- TheMussel

I agree with that as well. I believe that you can both try to fill an organizational need (although I do think aiming for specifics is very risky like "Power Forward", or "1C", or whatever . .) as building depth in an area, but ultimately you want draft for value. The player is an asset either to you or to someone else and that has value.

Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Brad Ross, Jiri Tlusty, Luke Schenn, Luca (frank)ing Cereda . . . on and on. No value acquisition for so many years is what stunted this team just as much as its inability to recognize the need to burn it to the ground and start over.

I don't recall making that argument.
- fifty__missions

No but you seem to want D because we have skilled forwards. But we have 2 more seasons before those skilled forwards start to hit free agency. If you can draft a D that contribute in that time, pick him ahead of forwards. If not, then you don’t know what the team is going to look like by the time they’re ready to make a difference so pick the best value you can find.

I agree with that as well. I believe that you can both try to fill an organizational need (although I do think aiming for specifics is very risky like "Power Forward", or "1C", or whatever . .) as building depth in an area, but ultimately you want draft for value. The player is an asset either to you or to someone else and that has value.

Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Brad Ross, Jiri Tlusty, Luke Schenn, Luca (frank)ing Cereda . . . on and on. No value acquisition for so many years is what stunted this team just as much as its inability to recognize the need to burn it to the ground and start over.
- Monkeypunk

This is, of course, part of my argument. Large, physical, RHD have large value in this league. In spades. You could argue even more value than a mid teens skill player, which is every bit as much a crapshoot.

17 wins
- winsix

nice

I agree with that as well. I believe that you can both try to fill an organizational need (although I do think aiming for specifics is very risky like "Power Forward", or "1C", or whatever . .) as building depth in an area, but ultimately you want draft for value. The player is an asset either to you or to someone else and that has value.

Tyler Biggs, Stuart Percy, Brad Ross, Jiri Tlusty, Luke Schenn, Luca (frank)ing Cereda . . . on and on. No value acquisition for so many years is what stunted this team just as much as its inability to recognize the need to burn it to the ground and start over.
- Monkeypunk

As many failures as you have listed, the Leafs generally do not spend draft capital on goalies. Tukka Rask was a first rounder, but generally they will pick a goalie in the third round or later. You can get lucky as the Rangers did with Shesterkin, but Vasilevskiy was a first rounder, Price and MAF were high first rounders, Demko was a high second. Seems like the Leafs will not pay the price to draft a top goalie prospect. I was really hoping the Leafs would have grabbed either Guhle or Schneider when they selected Amirov. I'm sick of hearing about drafting BPA - (frank) that. Get what you really really need.

BPA can be in general OR BPA that more meets a team need. I'm always for the latter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BPA can be in general OR BPA that more meets a team need. I'm always for the latter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- underhill14

I thought everyone here agreed with Santo?

This is, of course, part of my argument. Large, physical, RHD have large value in this league. In spades. You could argue even more value than a mid teens skill player, which is every bit as much a crapshoot.
- fifty__missions

I wished for Schneider.

I wished for Schneider in that draft.
- nbboy

Same here. I was also hoping for Askarov, but Nashville grabbed him. Schneider is playing a full regular shift on the Rangers, while Amirov might be a couple of years away if he recovers. Before Amirov's diagnosis, I thought Knies a second rounder passed him in prospect rankings on the Leafs.

8580
- winsix

8635

13 wins

8635

13 wins
- Garnie

Also 8547

14 wins.

8635

13 wins
- Garnie

Beat the guy in second place twice now. Once by half a point and yesterday I beat him by 40 points because I had Shesterkin and Robertson.

I thought everyone here agreed with Santo?
- fifty__missions

So salty as per usual

The Leafs D has done that and this is what it got them-



Matthews gets mugged and punched in the (frank)ing face and gets penalties for it. I have no faith, whatsoever, that the refs will do their damn job.
- GreatGigInTheSky

absolutely right

If the Leafs D did that crap it would be an endless parade to the penalty box.

Weber got supplementary discipline twice in the same playoff year and escaped suspension both times. How the F is that possible, he was a repeat (frank)ing offender within the same year.

A Leafs player would not only have been suspended, but it would be precedent setting suspension.