Did I read "coaching is overrated " on here?
- Pelle31Forever

It is if you ask Brind'amour.

The way the Avs have been playing recently, Im hoping they start to get a little more urgent about adding a piece like Giroux.
- MBFlyerfan

Hoping, we Flyer fan deserve some good luck, don’t we ?

Lol

Need the Yotes to stay hot. Need the crack to get hot, for the Sabres, Sens and Devils to win. Come on …

The way the Avs have been playing recently, Im hoping they start to get a little more urgent about adding a piece like Giroux.
- MBFlyerfan

Yup, I want Newhook and their 1st in 2023. People say they won't part with Newhook but teams can pretty desperate as the deadline nears.

Yup, I want Newhook and their 1st in 2023. People say they won't part with Newhook but teams can pretty desperate as the deadline nears.
- BiggE

They have no reason to part with Newhook over a rental. It’s not like they have a small window to win. Their core is pretty young. I think we would need to include a pretty decent prospect going the other way for them to give him up.

They have no reason to part with Newhook over a rental. It’s not like they have a small window to win. Their core is pretty young. I think we would need to include a pretty decent prospect going the other way for them to give him up.
- hereticpride

bingo

new blog

If emery was healthy the whole year the standings and playoff seeding's would have been totally different. Who knows who they would have end up playing.

Now if you had emery just for that cup finals yes they win it imo as well.
- hello it's me 2050

If game goes both ways. IF the Flyers didnt lose Couturier and Ellis for the season, Hayes for an extended period of time we'd be in a different position as well.

Fact is where we were in 2010 and where we are this season happened.

Captain Comfortable is hands down the dumbest nickname anyone has come up with for one of our players.

Here is how a quality coach on a well run NHL team handles a talented young player.

"Coach Sullivan on Puustinen: "I think he has a game that could play up and down the lineup. His greatest strengths are his offensive instincts, the way he finishes, and he can really shoot the puck... If we do put him in the lineup, we're going to help him play to his strengths."

You lack reading comprehension. The poster talked about recent seasons. Those are the seasons under Vigneault and Yeo. What I said was that Hakstol did a better job than both Vigneault and Yeo. Stating that coaching is overrated is just another dumb statement. We see the effects of both good and bad coaching all over hockey.
What sets the tone is play on the ice. You don't even have the logic to know that being called out AFTER a period is played, is not setting a tone. It's reacting to bad play.
You and others just can't seem to identify that there are more constants than Claude Giroux. The one constant and overall team factor that has been present for the majority of Giroux's career is that the team around him has just not been good enough. Has not been quality. When you look at Giroux's career and what he has accomplished as a player, it's pretty amazing. Despite all the road blocks. Blaming the lack of team success on Giroux as a captain is not only lacking a hockey foundation. It's lacking simple common sense.
- MJL

As I stated multiple times already, I am not placing the blame entirely on G. Surely this team has not been good enough to be a serious contender and has over the years lacked top end talent, and essentially wasted the prime years of Giroux. But that doesn't mean Giroux is totally blameless either. He is the captain of the team, he is responsible for setting the tone and building the culture of the team, and its just my opinion based on what I have observed and read about Giroux's personality that he is better suited as a player, not a team leader.

But you lack the understanding that the captain sets the zone, on and OFF the ice! How can you in one breath say this team has had poor coaching and in a previous breath state Hakstol was a good coach?? Coaching IMO is completely overrated, especially at the professional level, simply because the players are not afraid of the coach. Think Herb Brooks in that famous scene in miracle where he kept his team on the ice after a game and made them do suicides again, and again! This does not and cannot happen at the professional level, that is why Herb Brooks was not successful in the NHL. When I played HS it was different, we surely were afraid of our coach who in retrospect was downright abusive, but we feared our captain more, much more. If we didn't practice hard or were not prepared we would hear it. If we didn't skate hard enough on a shift during the game, in between periods we would be called out. That is what sets the tone! The captain leads the way. That does not mean others on the team cannot pick up the mantle and carry it further, but it starts with the captain. This team has wallowed in mediocrity for the past decade, and the last two season have been well below that. We have seen all the poor starts, the lack of playing 60 minutes, the dumb penalties, the break downs at end of games, not just this year but for the past several years. This is beyond one coach or one GM in fact. The one constant: Claude Giroux. I love him as a player, but he is not a good captain and even if he stays with the team, he needs to give up the 'C'!
- jd250

So, the coach (who has far more power to do the things you want the Captain to do) will not do it. Even though his job depends on it.

But the Captain, who doesn't have any real power, should do the things the coach won't do (because it worked for your high school hockey team).

Did I get the logic?

As I stated multiple times already, I am not placing the blame entirely on G. Surely this team has not been good enough to be a serious contender and has over the years lacked top end talent, and essentially wasted the prime years of Giroux. But that doesn't mean Giroux is totally blameless either. He is the captain of the team, he is responsible for setting the tone and building the culture of the team, and its just my opinion based on what I have observed and read about Giroux's personality that he is better suited as a player, not a team leader.
- jd250

Nobody is totally blameless but the simple fact is that Giroux is on the very bottom of the blame list. I'm glad that you admit that you really know nothing about Giroux as a captain. Even though you undoubtedly don't realize that you've done that. How does a player set a tone, set an example? Perhaps by being the best player on the ice for a decade? To state that the captain is responsible for building the culture of the team is beyond stupid.

Lack of talent and coaching have been the issues. Not Giroux's leadership.




You seem to lack the understanding that a players individual play on the ice, is leadership. It is leadership and leading by example. It is far more important than any behind the scenes leadership could possibly be. As the team captain, what more could you ask for than to have a player go out for over a decade, for almost a 1000 games and be generally the teams best player or among their best players game after game after game? On generally crappy to average teams?
The issue is that many, including yourself don't know what leadership is. People hear scuttlebutt and hearsay information about Giroux's personality. About how he's not a rah-rah in your face kind of leader and place blame on him for the overall team deficiencies. Fall back on clichés, which is the best you can do to make your case. While ignoring how he has carried the team on his back in the past. The team has been dysfunctional due to lack of talent, injuries, poor coaching and poor team building. It's a shame Giroux has not had a high enough level of super powers to overcome all of that all of the time.
- MJL

I’m not buying the lack of talent argument as it simply does not hold water and is a cop-out. He’s had guys like Voracek, Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Couturier, Hayes and the crop of kids who’ve come up from Hextall’s years of drafting.

Secondly and quite importantly, even if he didn’t have talent around him, this doesn’t explain or excuse the teams he’s lead in recent seasons essentially giving up or playing disinterested. As you said in the post above, nobody is blameless and as captain, neither should he.

Furthermore, the talk about quality as captain is a tricky subject. None of us are privy to what occurs in the locker-room on a daily basis. We as outsider observers can only judge what we see and what I’ve seen in the 3 of the last 4 seasons indicates a failure of leadership up and down the chain. Is it not possible MJL that perhaps Giroux is not the best candidate to lead a team? That’s all I am saying as you misconstrue my argument.

I’m not buying the lack of talent argument as it simply does not hold water and is a cop-out. He’s had guys like Voracek, Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Couturier, Hayes and the crop of kids who’ve come up from Hextall’s years of drafting.


- Sublime55

So you're on record now that the Flyers have had teams that have the talent to be a contender and that it is Giroux's lack of leadership that has kept them from reaching that status?

Secondly and quite importantly, even if he didn’t have talent around him, this doesn’t explain or excuse the teams he’s lead in recent seasons essentially giving up or playing disinterested. As you said in the post above, nobody is blameless and as captain, neither should he.


- Sublime55

The perception is that they've given up or played disinterested hockey. The reality is that the lack of talent, poor coaching and injuries are what causes that perception. Not Giroux's lack of leadership.

Furthermore, the talk about quality as captain is a tricky subject. None of us are privy to what occurs in the locker-room on a daily basis. We as outsider observers can only judge what we see and what I’ve seen in the 3 of the last 4 seasons indicates a failure of leadership up and down the chain. Is it not possible MJL that perhaps Giroux is not the best candidate to lead a team? That’s all I am saying as you misconstrue my argument.
- Sublime55

I haven't misconstrued your argument. What I've done is dismantle it and show that you don't have an argument. I don't see a failure of leadership from Giroux. I see a failure to build a quality team around him. I see a player that is close to a 1000 games played as a Flyer where he has been arguably the best player for over a decade. I see a player while not perfect, gives his all and has given his heart and soul this franchise. Never heard him complain publicly. Never heard of him throwing a teammate under the bus. By all reports, is completely supportive of players and new teammates. I could go on and on. If that's not leadership. I don't know what is. I know that those who are calling out Giroux for poor leadership certainly don't know what it is.

So you're on record now that the Flyers have had teams that have the talent to be a contender and that it is Giroux's lack of leadership that has kept them from reaching that status?




The perception is that they've given up or played disinterested hockey. The reality is that the lack of talent, poor coaching and injuries are what causes that perception. Not Giroux's lack of leadership.



I haven't misconstrued your argument. What I've done is dismantle it and show that you don't have an argument. I don't see a failure of leadership from Giroux. I see a failure to build a quality team around him. I see a player that is close to a 1000 games played as a Flyer where he has been arguably the best player for over a decade. I see a player while not perfect, gives his all and has given his heart and soul this franchise. Never heard him complain publicly. Never heard of him throwing a teammate under the bus. By all reports, is completely supportive of players and new teammates. I could go on and on. If that's not leadership. I don't know what is. I know that those who are calling out Giroux for poor leadership certainly don't know what it is.
- MJL

You haven’t dismantled anything as you ignore my central point that I pointedly asked you. You keep bringing up the value of point production and as I mentioned last night, his value strictly as player and point producer has already been acknowledged by me. I’m not sure why you keep trying to conflate this.

To your first paragraph in this response, I’d reference you back to the first paragraph of my initial response. Also trying to put words in my mouth and misconstrue (again) about the Flyers being a contender if Giroux was a better captain is an intellectually dishonest take. You know that’s not what I’m saying, so why go there?

Simply asking the reasonable and legitimate question about Giroux’s tenure as captain evokes such a fervent and almost zealous response from you and I don’t understand it.

You haven’t dismantled anything as you ignore my central point that I pointedly asked you. You keep bringing up the value of point production and as I mentioned last night, his value strictly as player and point producer has already been acknowledged by me. I’m not sure why you keep trying to conflate this.


- Sublime55

It's not conflating anything. It's your failure to recognize that Giroux's play and production for over a decade is leadership.

To your first paragraph in this response, I’d reference you back to the first paragraph of my initial response. Also trying to put words in my mouth and misconstrue (again) about the Flyers being a contender if Giroux was a better captain is an intellectually dishonest take. You know that’s not what I’m saying, so why go there?


- Sublime55

LOL, no it's not. Not when you're trying to blame the teams performance on Giroux. So how does this lack of leadership manifest itself. How does it show or how is it measured?

Simply asking the reasonable and legitimate question about Giroux’s tenure as captain evokes such a fervent and almost zealous response from you and I don’t understand it.
- Sublime55

I'm well aware that you don't understand it. My response isn't fervent or almost zealous. It's simply logical and points out that the criticisms of Giroux's leadership simply aren't logical.

You bring up some valid points. I've always had mixed feelings about Giroux. I've often wondered if he ever truly was a #1 center. I mean, is he physically able to fit that role especially come playoff time when things get ramped up physically. He was good in the 2010 playoffs as the third line center and he was great in that one series against the Pens when the Pens decided to outscore the Flyers and not play any defense. He's really been a none factor come playoff time since that 2012 series. It's still very hard to put much blame on Giroux cause this team has simply been constructed wrong for a loooooong time.
- Phillywhiteout

I think you and I are close to agreeing! I’m definitely not putting all or even most of the blame on him but believe that Claude definitely could be on a cup winning team. The organization didn’t build the best talent around him and a more driven leader/ captain was one of the pieces that was missing from the team.
If Claude chooses not to be traded and finishes his career here I would still root for him as one of the best all time Flyers.
If I was in his shoes I think I would choose not to be traded, winning a cup with as a rental player would seem hollow after playing my whole career with the Flyers.

I think you and I are close to agreeing! I’m definitely not putting all or even most of the blame on him but believe that Claude definitely could be on a cup winning team. The organization didn’t build the best talent around him and a more driven leader/ captain was one of the pieces that was missing from the team.
If Claude chooses not to be traded and finishes his career here I would still root for him as one of the best all time Flyers.
If I was in his shoes I think I would choose not to be traded, winning a cup with as a rental player would seem hollow after playing my whole career with the Flyers.
- Hosher12

Not sure how this myth that Giroux is not a driven leader was formed. He is incredibly driven as a player and a leader. How would winning a cup with another team be hollow? Was Mark Messier's cup win in NY hollow?